Hunting Rifle

[meketrefe]

squib,
Accuracy international sells the rifles w/o mounts. Extra weight is not necessarily a bad thing in a long range heavy rifle but in a hunting rifle is
not the same. It is up to the operator to decide is one gets a solid mount based on needs and geometry of the rifle.
The AI has an integrated base and from there it is a matter of choosing the right mount for the given optics
In any case lots of shooters with the AI and even taller setups like the tube guns do not use AI mounts and go and win all sort of competitions.
But back to the Bergera in question, why do you think a steel base and steel rings will not give appropriate rigidity?

 

[Cleck]

As you know, this is a firearms forum and we don't get too many firearms discussions so for Miles, a few others and I, having a project is a nice break from
all the politics and head-lines news updates type of threads.

This is why I'm here. Obviously, I'm new to long range shooting and I'm learning, absorbing as much info as possible. Just read everything to catch up and will be hopefully applying some to my rifle. Mine is definitely intended to be a hunting rifle, but I'd like to go to a range with my setup and say that after reading this and the BDC stuff, that I could hit 200 easy and be accurate at 300. For me, that's progress and really my goals for this gun. Obviously, I wanna drop a deer too.

Also, the car modder in me couldn't wait long. I was itching for upgrades, aside from the scope. When it's all said and done, I'll be into this rifle for $350-420 (depending if I stay with the Buckmasters or move up to ProStaff), so I couldn't justify spending on a new stock or trigger group right now. Maybe in a few years. Maybe I'll sell the whole rig and move up to another rifle and restart. Who knows.

Anyways, I did a lot of research and found that the worst part of the whole rig is the stock trigger, which isn't of the Accutrigger variety. Apparently, it's something to the tune of 7lbs out of the box, and I confirmed that it was very heavy, but I didn't have a way to measure it. After lots of reading, I chose not to cut a coil off the stock spring in the trigger, and instead opted for a threaded bolt and compression spring. Yes, I Home Depot'd the shit out of this budget rifle. Not afraid to put lipstick on a pig either, haha. Anyway, I gotta say, it's a massive improvement. I chose not to Polish the sear, as I had no faith in doing that. After a while, I still may, but I doubt it. The final result is definitely a lighter pull with almost 0 over-travel once it engages. It's shorter, it's lighter, and I like it. Just waiting to actually get on the range to test it, but I imagine it'll definitely help, as I feel the stick trigger/spring had a lot to do with the poor groups my first time out. We'll see.

 

[Snappo]

Considering money is tight right now I won't be getting the proper mounting hardware before season. I hope to get it and have someone that knows what they are doing properly measure me, bed and mount the scope early next summer. Here's the scope with the old rings I hope to use on the new rifle. View attachment 2148

I'm a scope whisperer. Your Zeiss is telling me it wants better rings! You see how your rings have one screw on each side? Bad bad bad. The reason is that you want the top of the ring to have a specific amount of downward pressure so the scope cannot rotate in the ring. The more screws you have, the less force on each screw to support that downward pressure. The more force on a screw, the more likely to stretch the thread or get complete screw failure. So go with 6 screws per ring or 4 screws per ring. I know it's a little more money ($80 to $100 for rings instead of $20 to $40) but it's one of the best investments you will EVER make. Don't forget, when you are out hunting and something bumps a turret cap, your scope can turn OR your screw thread can snap from the extra momentary force. Then you come home meatless and hungry.

 

[MilesTeg]

I'm a scope whisperer. Your Zeiss is telling me it wants better rings! You see how your rings have one screw on each side? Bad bad bad. The reason is that you want the top of the ring to have a specific amount of downward pressure so the scope cannot rotate in the ring. The more screws you have, the less force on each screw to support that downward pressure. The more force on a screw, the more likely to stretch the thread or get complete screw failure. So go with 6 screws per ring or 4 screws per ring. I know it's a little more money ($80 to $100 for rings instead of $20 to $40) but it's one of the best investments you will EVER make. Don't forget, when you are out hunting and something bumps a turret cap, your scope can turn OR your screw thread can snap from the extra momentary force. Then you come home meatless and hungry.

I agree that's why I'm looking at these right now.

TPS TSR Picatinny-Style Rings Matte

BTW your tempting me with that image you linked stamped "USMC". I can't resist!

 

[meketrefe]

I agree that's why I'm looking at these right now.

TPS TSR Picatinny-Style Rings Matte

BTW your tempting me with that image you linked stamped "USMC". I can't resist!

Miles is the zeiss 25mm or 30mm tube. I think you have a 25mm (1") right?

 

[MilesTeg]

I actually found the box at my parents last weekend, it said 1". I haven't measured the tube yet I will next time I'm trying to measure height.

 

[meketrefe]

I was asking because one can go crazy wiht options but I know you are on a budget.
so was .1800" from the new base to the scope tube the stack of pennies?
why do you have two measures? if .1725 works why not go with the lower? How does it feel while leaning prone
wiht the natural cheek rest? This is a good time to decide based on ergonomics too?

I am asking because I have a bunch of oem rings. if you don't mind permanent the warne maxima is a split design but
very strong but if you don't mind spending more the TPS will be a tad better.
Of course one has always the option to install strong aluminum that save money but in this case one might go
for something not too expensive OEM and install three rings vs. two. just like sako systems do. Very rigid.

I am more worried about what to choose in terms of strong threads. I do not care so much about finishing but it
must be a clean cut and true. Brands sometimes mean nothing as many brands use the same exact ring from
OEM manufacturers. Sometimes OEM brandless or ebay brands are the same than burris, leupold, nikon, etc...
same exact ring in different finishes, camo included.

So we have to know the actual ring.

 

[MilesTeg]

The two different measurements are from the two different penny stacks. I'm ok with spending a little more to get the right thing, that's why the TPS caught my eye. I did see the TPS rings didn't go as low as I measured. So I will mock up that height also.

I want to mock up the scope again and take measurements. I was kind of rushing around when I was measuring the first time. I want to try different positions. I didn't have my tape on well it was a little short so I was nervous about dropping the scope.

 

[Snappo]

The two different measurements are from the two different penny stacks. I'm ok with spending a little more to get the right thing, that's why the TPS caught my eye. I did see the TPS rings didn't go as low as I measured. So I will mock up that height also.

I want to mock up the scope again and take measurements. I was kind of rushing around when I was measuring the first time. I want to try different positions. I didn't have my tape on well it was a little short so I was nervous about dropping the scope.

Not to throw TPS under the bus and they make good stuff; but I have been going Badger because it's the same price but the machinist cuts the 2 mounts from the same metal blank and then serial numbers them to each other. If you end up with a ton of rings like I did, then you can match them to each other. If you make a mistake by mixing rings and maybe one is a high and the other is an extra high, or one is a 20 degree and the other is a 0 degree - you could fuck up and damage the scope. Could be an expensive oops. If you are gonna do MidwayUSA; don't forget to send them your C&R FFL if you have one. They will give you 5% off your order.

 

[MilesTeg]

Unless I'm missing something badger rings are twice the price of the TPS. The matching serial numbers is good thing but I don't think I can justify the added cost.

 

[meketrefe]

Of course badger are the best. I am not going to argue wiht that.
The issue is it really necessary for this role also given he is on a budget. I doubt that so I give folks alternatives. ..you know things the working
man in america can afford.

 

[Cleck]

So in terms of not bumping/rotating the scope when you're torquing, how would these vertical style offerings from Nikon do?

Scope Mounts | Nikon Rifle Scopes

 

[MilesTeg]

So in terms of not bumping/rotating the scope when you're torquing, how would these vertical style offerings from Nikon do?

Scope Mounts | Nikon Rifle Scopes

Those appear to be for a 22. Meke linked a similar design up above.

 

[meketrefe]

So in terms of not bumping/rotating the scope when you're torquing, how would these vertical style offerings from Nikon do?

Scope Mounts | Nikon Rifle Scopes

BAD. stay away from those mount designs. Those are OEM mounts with the nikon brand on top. the porlbem si they are bad OEM parts.
if you want to save UTG pro (made in the US) has a line of scope rings called extreme or critical duty or something like
that that will hold 100 times better than many expensive brand names. They are very well cut, strong and heavy duty. UTG is not just a airsoft company anymore, they got into quality cutting parts and they are well priced. Same like their AR rails that beat the Troy or midwest in any single aspect.
These guys do not use OEM they cut their own.

 

[meketrefe]

here....
Leapers UTG 1 Max Strength Tactical 4-Hole Quick Detachable

 

[Cleck]

Did you look at all of them? There's more than .22 mounts in there.

 

[Cleck]

Either way, looks like I would need medium mounts, as long as whichever scope I'm getting is close in size to this one. Just basically going by assumed tube size and objective being the same. Measured 15mm from the top of my action to the bottom of my scope tube. Seems to match w/ what I'm reading. And they're out of stock on that site, heh. Same price as the Nikon ones, but if you say the Nikon ones are all junk, I'll believe you over what I don't know

 

[meketrefe]

Did you look at all of them? There's more than .22 mounts in there.

oh ok. I thound you meant the ones at the top.

the S series are good solid rings. The exact same as the warne maxima but more expensive. Check at the bottom...

Nikon....

Warne....


Warne 1 Maxima Permanent-Attachable Weaver-Style Rings

Same as Thomson...

Thompson/Center Maxima™ Standard Rings : Cabela's





EBAY the best price...

Warne 201M Scope Mounts Maxima Fixed Ring 1" Medium Matte WR201M | eBay

Remember these are split so they are installed and then left on so not for scope swapping but they are very reliable
and robust for the money with nice torx screws.

 

[Cleck]

What about the A-series?

 

[meketrefe]

What about the A-series?

I suggest never buy rings that rely in one single screw/bolt for both more even pressure distribution and also reliability.

what scope do you have? size of tube?

If you have a 1" hunting scope and you are tight on budget these grand slam rings are about the strongest for that kind of money.
These come with the largest grand slam scopes that are as heavy as the heaviest tactical scopes and they stay in place.
Not the best steel ring option but they will work.

Weaver Grand Slam 1" Top Mount Rings Extra High Matte Black Finish 49307 | eBay

Still if I wanted to go as slow as I could on a budget the UTG pro critical duty would be my first pick. people are mounting these
in heavy magnums, patrol cars, etc.. and they retain zero.

 

[Cleck]

I suggest never buy rings that rely in one single screw/bolt for both more even pressure distribution and also reliability.

what scope do you have? size of tube?

If you have a 1" hunting scope and you are tight on budget these grand slam rings are about the strongest for that kind of money.
These come with the largest grand slam scopes that are as heavy as the heaviest tactical scopes and they stay in place.
Not the best steel ring option but they will work.

Weaver Grand Slam 1" Top Mount Rings Extra High Matte Black Finish 49307 | eBay

Still if I wanted to go as slow as I could on a budget the UTG pro critical duty would be my first pick. people are mounting these
in heavy magnums, patrol cars, etc.. and they retain zero.

Ok, that makes sense about the 1 bolt mounting, glad to know.

I'll either be getting the Buckmasters II 4-12x40 or Prostaff 4-12x40, and both have a 1" tube.

It's not so much that I'm on a budget for the rifle, although it kind of is one, lol. Those UTG rings you linked earlier were fine, but I'll take a look at these too.

 

[MilesTeg]

Ok, that makes sense about the 1 bolt mounting, glad to know.

I'll either be getting the Buckmasters II 4-12x40 or Prostaff 4-12x40, and both have a 1" tube.

It's not so much that I'm on a budget for the rifle, although it kind of is one, lol. Those UTG rings you linked earlier were fine, but I'll take a look at these too.

I would lean on getting the Prostaff. I don't know why but I like those scopes. Have we scared you away from a BDC reticle yet?

 

[Cleck]

I would lean on getting the Prostaff. I don't know why but I like those scopes. Have we scared you away from a BDC reticle yet?

Haha, nope, not even close. I thought about it for a half-second when I saw a traditional BDC reticle on a Vortex Crossfire the other day, but decided I still wanted to give this a try.

What's the difference between the Prostaff and Buckhunters II? They both have the same size and magnification, both anti-fog lenses, both have the lift-to-return-to-zero turrets, same reticle. Aside from the price, I don't know the difference.

 

[MilesTeg]

Haha, nope, not even close. I thought about it for a half-second when I saw a traditional BDC reticle on a Vortex Crossfire the other day, but decided I still wanted to give this a try.

What's the difference between the Prostaff and Buckhunters II? They both have the same size and magnification, both anti-fog lenses, both have the lift-to-return-to-zero turrets, same reticle. Aside from the price, I don't know the difference.

I don't know either. I will be interested on someone in the know chiming in. Quick Google search found this.Nikon Buckmaster vs ProStaff - [WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?]

 

[Cleck]

Another reason why this and the Hunting rifle thread should be pinned, lol.

Looks like the Prostaff has about a +6 advantage in light transmission (98-92%), for about $50-60 more in price online. That slack in the price could be used for a better set of rings if I didn't find myself needing the extra clarity/light transmission.

I'll keep watching the prices online. If the Prostaff 4-12 can be found for under $200, it may be worth the investment in the long run. Getting started though, I'd put the value in the Buckmasters if I can't find the deal I want, and it wouldn't bother me.

 

[Cleck]

Also forgot to note, the Prostaff is slightly heavier too.

 

[MilesTeg]

I still wish we could convince you not to go with the BDC. I know it's just my personal preference so I don't push too hard.

 

[Cleck]

I would ditch the BDC if I could math it easier, if I had been doing it awhile, if I wasn't just starting out.

Vortex technically calls this a BDC too, are you against the BDC in principle, or just the circles? This is Vortex's version of the BDC:

Technically, the Prostaff only comes in BDC, or nikoplex, but that has nothing to gauge elevation, nothing to hold on.

 

[meketrefe]

I would ditch the BDC if I could math it easier, if I had been doing it awhile, if I wasn't just starting out.

Vortex technically calls this a BDC too, are you against the BDC in principle, or just the circles? This is Vortex's version of the BDC:

Technically, the Prostaff only comes in BDC, or nikoplex, but that has nothing to gauge elevation, nothing to hold on.

What is the caliber of your rifle?

 

[Cleck]

308.

I think the more I'm prodded, I can be persuaded to drop the circle BDC sight for one like the Vortex, or even a mildot (except one doesn't exist for either of those scopes), but I want something to hold with, that's what the circles/hashes does for me. I'm just being additionally lazy by not learning how to dope up and just use the one crosshair to sight with. Once it's zeroed at 100, I get that I just need to mainly adjust the elevation. I think I just wanted to get used to shooting long first w/out worrying about changing the settings every time I wanted to go a different distance. Sighting at 100, then using the first BDC to go 200, 2nd for 300 or whatever, was appealing. It was appealing knowing that once I knew where zero was, the other BDC's were for the most part, already calibrated.

You guys make it seem easy to just go 100-800 by doping up, but that's also come from years of practice. I realize I could too, I'm just not as familiar w/ all the math regarding the velocity and load of each round.