I just read a bunch of reviews I won't be buying the American series dies anytime soon. Wow I should have done my research first, lots of good stories. I still might get a set of dies for the rifle but I won't be buying those.
Hunting Rifle
- Thread starter MilesTeg
- Start date
After watching a few of the videos from 8451 tactical. It makes me miss rifle shooting. The past few years I have been primarily shooting pistols. Hopefully this summer I will remedy the situation. I'm thinking light weight chassis 6.5 Creedmoor will be up next.
OK I got the scope base in and have a question for the pros. I dry fitted the base to see if I needed to bed it. Well when I tighten the front screws there's a slight gap in the rear. I can't fit an idea card in but barley a normal piece of paper will slide under. When I put in the back screws the front has a bigger gap. I can fit an index card under it. So should I bed the front? Or is that slight of a gap OK? Also the rifle came with a metal shim to put under the rear. Should I use this and see if the base fits better or worse? I'm not looking for extreme distance here. I will probably zero at 200 and has a non adjustable turrets so I would be doping the scope.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
We don't know that right?
In NZ, AU and other areas of the world there is a huge pest of feral goats. Like we have with pigs in some areas here. There is open season all year round.
In NZ it was so bad at some point in history with small rogue deer the government issued 222R rifles to pop them everywhere.
I don't know his reasons but what I don't like for sure is see an animal suffering badly wounded due to poor choices and bad shooters.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
My suggestion is to bed both back and front and use very little torque just so slightly to squeeze off the excess epoxy but w/o stress. So it will put a very thin skim layer. It seems you don't need much epoxy. Make sure it is evenly distributed w/o bubbles. After it cures you can torque down to manufacturer values.
The key here is to make sure the screws and action are not epoxied so use grease or shoe polish. Also clean any excess that can make them inside the action. Even grease inside the action in case something ends up oozing out.
Taping the base all around the edge with masking tape will easy clean up. Still grease everything including the tape you don't want the epoxy to stick. Only lightly pass an emery cloth on the base bottom and clean with break cleaner where you want the epoxy to stick. That has to be degreased and super clean.
Also put a bit epoxy in the recoil lug area if your base has a cut for the recoil. Anything that is supposed to touch really.
Good luck.
I knew I forgot something on my shopping list. Well I will have to go shopping tomorrow I need break cleaner and emery cloth. I was going to us Vaseline as a release agent and I have play dough to protect the screws. But now I'm going to bed both sides it probably won't work. When you say light torque should I just tighten until it started to squeeze out? Or should I go screw driver tight with the screws?
On a different note I like the look and feel of the starling brass. I might try to start prepping it soon. How does everyone prep their new brass?
On a different note I like the look and feel of the starling brass. I might try to start prepping it soon. How does everyone prep their new brass?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
You can use azetone for small parts. Also any other sand paper it is just to clean any paint or treatment in the contact portions of the base and to give some rougness for the epoxy to stick better.
Torqueing should be minimum to squeeze out the excess epoxy. Cover the screw holes and screws with plenty of grease or vaseline. All you need is very thin layer of epoxy it seems. You saw how little space there is right? Any case make sure there is more than needed and simply clean well before it sets.
Torqueing should be minimum to squeeze out the excess epoxy. Cover the screw holes and screws with plenty of grease or vaseline. All you need is very thin layer of epoxy it seems. You saw how little space there is right? Any case make sure there is more than needed and simply clean well before it sets.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Hey Miles,
I was thinking if the front section is torqued down tighter like you did during the test it will need very little epoxy including the recoil
cut in the base and then just put the screws so slightly in the back but do not force it at all. even w/o nothing in there
you should have enough force to squeeze out the epoxy at the back. It is hard to make all the possible suggestions w/o actually seeing it but based on what you described earlier makes sense? The key is full contact and no stress but assure proper alignment that is why I was suggesting putting
the back screws too even so slightly w/o any force before you torque the front.
Some people do it torquing everything like crazy (same like bedding the action) and that is when you are forcing things out of shape.
Stress free means no stress. Sorry for being redundant here.
happy new year!
I was thinking if the front section is torqued down tighter like you did during the test it will need very little epoxy including the recoil
cut in the base and then just put the screws so slightly in the back but do not force it at all. even w/o nothing in there
you should have enough force to squeeze out the epoxy at the back. It is hard to make all the possible suggestions w/o actually seeing it but based on what you described earlier makes sense? The key is full contact and no stress but assure proper alignment that is why I was suggesting putting
the back screws too even so slightly w/o any force before you torque the front.
Some people do it torquing everything like crazy (same like bedding the action) and that is when you are forcing things out of shape.
Stress free means no stress. Sorry for being redundant here.
happy new year!
Well I was hoping to bed the base this weekend but it just didn't work out. I did get a chance to prep it and take a few pictures so here they are.
These two are of the rear of the receiver. The second one has an index card in the gap.
These two of the front and once again that's an index card in the gap.
Lastly this is a picture of the receiver greased up and I'm going to try to use Qtips stems to help keep the epoxy out of the threads. I have also greases the screwed and ran them in and out of the receiver a few time to help coat everything in case any epoxy gets in there.
These two are of the rear of the receiver. The second one has an index card in the gap.
These two of the front and once again that's an index card in the gap.
Lastly this is a picture of the receiver greased up and I'm going to try to use Qtips stems to help keep the epoxy out of the threads. I have also greases the screwed and ran them in and out of the receiver a few time to help coat everything in case any epoxy gets in there.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That doesn't seem too bad. IMO I would just torque the front more and then back so very slightly just to make sure the epoxy is squeezed and all is aligned but not forcing it down nor bending it in the back.
BTW is there a recoil cut/notch in the the front of that base?
like seen here...
BTW is there a recoil cut/notch in the the front of that base?
like seen here...
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
squib,
Why change it?
I just did a double check it does not have a recoil lug.That doesn't seem too bad. IMO I would just torque the front more and then back so very slightly just to make sure the epoxy is squeezed and all is aligned but not forcing it down nor bending it in the back.
BTW is there a recoil cut/notch in the the front of that base?
like seen here...
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Not a problem. It is not like a heavy magnum.
You can grease the action and with a bit of playdoug make a little dam so the epoxy itself can create a lip wo runnig down the action. This is just optional. Not critical. Just sand the base a little where the epoxy is going to stick.
This one isn't a precision rifle but I'm not going to lie I have been kicking around the idea of a build. I'm thinking a light weight 6.5 creedmoore. Something fun to eventually do some PRS matches.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I see no difference.
An accurate rifle is an accurate rifle. What is a precision rifle other than an accurate rifle?
Of course you don't want a 5lb rifle for a win mag but that is a different story.
lots of development for a "hunting rifle"
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
BTW I was thinking about taking a cheap stock from the recycle /parts bin and use it as a baseline to document some
bedding ideas and techniques. Nothing too fancy but it might serve two purposes.
A) explain some bedding concepts.
B) Someone with one of those Tupperware stocks like the Ruger American, R700ADL or Axis can use those to improve their
budget stock. I think the rend result might be better than one of those cheap boyds made of wood that also need a lot of
work anyway.
Let me know.
bedding ideas and techniques. Nothing too fancy but it might serve two purposes.
A) explain some bedding concepts.
B) Someone with one of those Tupperware stocks like the Ruger American, R700ADL or Axis can use those to improve their
budget stock. I think the rend result might be better than one of those cheap boyds made of wood that also need a lot of
work anyway.
Let me know.
All very true. My thought is to try to have rifles tailored to fit certain roles how I see fit. It's hard to get a rifle that can do everything without compromises. Take for instance what I call my "bench gun" it's a stock savage in 308. I never used this gun to hunt for the sole fact is it's freaking heavy. If I was required to shoot it unsupported I would have a small window to make a good shot. But the gun is a blast to shoot from the bench or prone. I have no problem hitting 4" at 300 yds and a ipsc torso at 600. I have no doubt I could push it farther I just haven't pushed it yet.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The discussion has been long but no much development.
The concepts we are discussing apply to any role, any kind of rifle.
The hunting can be 50 yards or can be 800 yards depending what you are hunting right?
So having a sub moa hunting rifle is a good thing no matter what.
We are talking simple improvements here. Baby steps ..
What game has a sub moa vital area?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I see your point but also in the real world a 308 can easily take the role of a 243, a 270 and a 30-06.
So with careful planning and good ammo or careful load development the 308 might do 99% of what a given person might ever need.
Of course there is appealing for other more specialized rifles but how many times we are going to exhaust the possibilities of something
as versatile as the 308w. Or the 7mm-08 same thing that as of today it is the best long range round derived from the 308 case as donor.
Whatever we do is all applicable in order contexts and calibers and all fun at the end of the day that is what matters the most.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
For a hunting rifle I just grab some decent rings and throw the optic on. Then I grab a few
Boxes of quality hunting Ammo and see what groups best.I guess I'm lazy ha. 800 yard shots are unethical for the vast majority of hunters in my opinion. I have no issue with the tread title. It just seems like a whole lot of work for a deer flattener. If one enjoys this level of tinkering on their hunting rifle then have at it! There are much worse ways of spending time and money. I have not read the entire thread yet. Was the ride not shooting well out of the box?
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Boxes of quality hunting Ammo and see what groups best.I guess I'm lazy ha. 800 yard shots are unethical for the vast majority of hunters in my opinion. I have no issue with the tread title. It just seems like a whole lot of work for a deer flattener. If one enjoys this level of tinkering on their hunting rifle then have at it! There are much worse ways of spending time and money. I have not read the entire thread yet. Was the ride not shooting well out of the box?
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I agree there are calibers that really have a wide range of uses. I see a 7mm-08 in my future also. I like my 308's and they do everything I ask of them but for some reason I desire other calibers. I also have no doubt that more 308's are in my future also.
Also don't look too closely at that savage meke, the scope mounting is terrible. I keep saying I'm going to fix it just other projects have jumped in front of it.
I'm in the same camp as far as hunting rifles. cold bore shot in a 3inch target @100yds is plenty accurate. It's hard to measure groups on dead things.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
squib,
Pretty much all long range hunting right?
When I say long range hunting I am still talking about real life ethical hunting.
This includes some of the best varmint rifles and scopes like PD favorite rifles.
Precise rifles do not deliver alone but they are a fundamental part of the recipe.
There are many forums dedicated to long range hunting for all kinds of game.
This is a good one where enthusiasts and professional hunters post about equipment and training..
Long Range Hunting Online Magazine
But lets move on with the thread. This is not about customizing a cheap bottom shelf rifle. The op already invested
on a superior platform for accuracy and reliability. It seems to me he has objectives and good reasons for it.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The idea is the same. Even with some inexpensive bases, sometimes on sale, one has to go through the motions but w/o spending an eye.
there are easy tricks and DIY alternatives to overcome the typical weak points. This way makes accuracy and repeatability more accessible
to the average working man. It might be a bit more work and attention to detail, like when reloading, but it pays off and it is also fun.
I have zero interest in inaccurate rifles. I mean, I like the AK but in this case everyone knows what to expect.
Almost every single bolt action platform can be easily improved with little or no investment.
Same thing for the shooting skills, perhaps seek some training.
IMO all is needed is that one enjoys those things so one is motivated and open minded to learn.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Realistically about how much do you think all this bedding and other work will improve groups? Im all for mek showing improvements on crap stocks that come with the American. If
It makes a difference that's measurable I will give
It a go. Fun project but not needed on my American. It shoots around an inch and I don't shoot past 200 where i hunt.
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It makes a difference that's measurable I will give
It a go. Fun project but not needed on my American. It shoots around an inch and I don't shoot past 200 where i hunt.
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The bedding won't shrink the groups much if even measurable. The reasons both me and Meke think the groups were what they were is two fold. The first being the scope was mounted too high. I knew this going in to the season but didn't have the money or time to remedy it. The second being I could only find 150gr ammo in the local area and I think the rifle didn't care for it. This will be addressed in the spring with some load development. The whole point of the bedding is if I'm going to be mounting this scope on this rifle for good why not do it right? For a few cents of epoxy and some time why not do it? Plus I like to learn and hopefully apply it to more of a precision rifle build.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
ECU,
Initially all the entry level rifles show improvement with a new stock because they all are crap at those prices points. People call them Tupperware stocks.
The American, patriot, axis, R700 ALD and tikka are the ones that seem to show more benefit from upgrades. The savage depending on the model will need a new stock or might be able to easily improve the original. For example the stevens 200 LA plastic stock came with steel pillar bedding and it is stiffer than the average so that is one good thing one can work with if one wants to work with a budget and try bedding the plastic factory stock. The Savage with the accustock does not need anything. They are amazing shooters out of the box with aluminum bedding so the only thing one might tune the torque settings.
The base is a simple thing to do and a clear issue explained in many threads and videos all over. If there is movement there it is hard to have consistent results.
These things are hard to quantify and it is hard to determine how much impact one things has over another but one thing is true, they compound.
So by taking corrective measure one can start compounding towards improved results vs. compounding problems. This doesn't exclude the rings,
scope, ergonomic, ammunition, reloading, etc...
The idea is to give the shooter confidence to shoot the same groups consistently back to back one after another. If the gun shoots 1moa great, if it shoots 3/4 moa or less even better. I think the key is to have something that is consistent and with this I mean it will repeat that accuracy one time after another. Of course if one wants this right away they might go and put the money on a custom rifle from a reputable maker and get amazing results but more times than not people do not have huge budgets and do not need competition level accuracy but they can also use some improvements w/o spending and eye.
If your rifle holds zero and it is 1" consistently under any conditions then for 200 yards might not want to touch it. One of the biggest issue with the factory cheap stocks is that they are not rigid at all and some with little tension, like shooting prone one day, might interfere with the barrel. Even the Remington 700 SPS with the Hogue stock has that problem and that is a $700 rifle. So that to me alone is a reason for either fixing the stock or replacing it.
But I enjoy to get all the accuracy I can get even in a budget rifle. I don't shoot fast so my challenge is to shoot accurately and understand ballistics.
I understand for others that is not that important. Same way not everyone likes likes muzzle loading or cowboy action.
The American is a bit different though because they use a V system to work as the recoil lugs so it can be a bit more tricky and extra work but it should improve too.
Some people that are looking at a nice stock like a B&C might say lets try this first and then if it doesn't do much go for the stock upgrade.
I guess I will do one cheap stock from the leftovers box and if people feel like it they can try some of the ideas and tips. Miles is going to post his
evolution too.