Hunting Rifle

[meketrefe]

The bedding won't shrink the groups much if even measurable. The reasons both me and Meke think the groups were what they were is two fold. The first being the scope was mounted too high. I knew this going in to the season but didn't have the money or time to remedy it. The second being I could only find 150gr ammo in the local area and I think the rifle didn't care for it. This will be addressed in the spring with some load development. The whole point of the bedding is if I'm going to be mounting this scope on this rifle for good why not do it right? For a few cents of epoxy and some time why not do it? Plus I like to learn and hopefully apply it to more of a precision rifle build.

Miles,
In my experience issues come in two and threes sometimes. Most times self inflicted 'wounds' but it can be also part of the process/evolution.
You will not believe the amount of problems that are the result of poor mounts and optics, poor ergonomics, so so ammo, and questionable shooting routine.
I believe 7 to 8 out of 10 setups have some sort of issue. These includes the most obvious often overlooked things, and please, it is understandable because people are not born knowing about all these variables.

It comes down to a very simple thing. IMO no matter how much amount of advice we give online or books we read or DVDs we watch if one
has access to a professional training starting how to get setup and how to shoot then a lot of things are resolved right on the spot sometimes
in one day session. Otherwise like many threads we might be bombarded with advice based on brands, personal preferences, internet marketing,
and so forth and never get to the bottom of the issues. So you laid out your goals and wishes very clearly that is a very good start.

I mean don't miss understand me please. I think there is a lot of value in reading good books and watching some of those nice youtubers videos (if one knows how to filter out all the garbage) but at the same time, there is nothing like having one on one advice and close inspection of things that one can overlook.
Some of these things will be learned trough experience too but some others can be easily avoided and the corresponding pain or dissatisfaction associated.

Sometimes I get a lot of heat because people don't want to be offended after spending 1 day setting up that scope or buying those rings only to hear the setup needs to be changed and what not.

So I guess like in any sport, one needs to really want improvement. One needs to like going trough the motions with an open mind and at least a certain level of passion.

For me understanding the rifle, the ammo and marksmanship is part of the whole experience. And even if I don't hunt anything I don't care because being outdoors is also a huge part of that experience. In a given day I could care less about shooting if I am enjoying fresh air and the warn sun in my face.
Same thing with shooting. I enjoy spotting as much as shooting if not more.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[meketrefe]

@ECU Pirates and @squib,

I think nobody knows better than you what is important to you. Nobody is going to argue with your reasons.

ECU, 800 yards is not a distance you will see in NYS very often only occasional varmint hunting.

But at the same time whether 800 or 1200 yards is ethical hunting or not is up to the shooters responsibility. Starting with a super accurate rifle, top glass and lots of training, I would say.

Three years ago I was invited down to AZ to a dude ranch to take down some coyotes that were going after the calves.

I had the work cut out for me. Those sneaky bastards are among the hardest things to hit at long range and one cannot get close enough
so 600 to 900 yards over the horizon of prairie were the norm. W/o an accurate rifle I could not have taken the trip, I guess for other than kicking some dirt around. Even those sneaky coyotes deserve a humane kill.
One my buddies here in Western NY has lots of chucks in the farm and he takes them with the 243 as far as the round can be effective.

So for some people there is a use and reasonable justification for having at least one pretty accurate rifle outside the match/ BR / competition world.

As you know, this is a firearms forum and we don't get too many firearms discussions so for Miles, a few others and I, having a project is a nice break from
all the politics and head-lines news updates type of threads. We had a lot of that at NYfirearms too and that is the reason we lost a lot of good shooting
folks to other forums more shooting and firearms oriented. I like firearms a lot more than politics, specially in a firearms forum.

I do get your point. sometimes simple is good too. But also following a thread advice is optional.

Nobody is obligated to take on any of these things right?

 

[Jaywmustang]

I like to get the most out of all my rifles. Some I am willing to invest in, while others I am happy where they are. It comes down to the end user on what they expect from their rifle. If you are happy with your rifle, don't change it. I have never heard a hunter complain about their rifles shooting to good.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Nothing wrong with trying to make a rifle as accurate as possible. The OP said the longest shot was 200 (I think). It just seems like a lot of work for shooting a deer at 200 to me (and not really needed in my opinion). I would have lowered the optic and tried some other ammo weights to see what the rifle likes best. The OP mentioned building a precision rifle. Then I totally get all the extra labor, time and expense for that. If someone enjoys doing this for a deer rifle then of course it's a worthwhile endeavor. Some people find this relaxing and fun. I'm not one of them haha. If the OP is then enjoy the tinkering and keep us posted on the results.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Another thing that I'm sure most know. Don't just shoot your hunting rifle off the bench or prone! I wish my stand offered shots from a rock solid rest but for some reason it does not!

 

[meketrefe]

@ECU Pirates ,

Like I said nobody is going to argue with your reasons. Nobody knows them better than you.

I don't think what we are doing is complicated or labor intensive. If you read the thread you will see @MilesTeg has not done much yet.
The thread is long to talk about several factors to improve accuracy but in the end all very simple and common things like bedding the scope base.
It literally takes 15 minutes to bed a base and almost no cost. We are just talking and making this some sort of learning / tutorial exercise.
By ordering the rings later he can make sure the optics are as low as they can be avoiding the typical mistake of ordering the rings mount and
scope all together. Rings are one of the most returned items or people end up with a collection of them they do not need.

Regarding the Minute of Deer and 200 yards I think Miles wants to shoot a squirrel at 200 yards right between the eyes and never miss.

You are ok with minute of deer, he wants minute of squirrel. LOL

Regarding not shooting prone I don't understand. you zero your rifle in a stable position. Might also want to do some score shooting for fun. Might
even compete in a local weekend league and want to score high at 200 yards. Still can hunt with that rifle.

I understand you want to be practical about your own circumstances and goals but we should not assume those apply to everyone otherwise we might
be proposing a set of limiting believes that are restrictive in nature and do not really help in any shape or form.

I think everyone I know who is into shooting are happy to improve the accuracy or their firearms and own shooting skills.
I also understand your point of view of being practical for your own goals. But please also understand others desires and goals.

Again so far there is nothing too involved nor complicated proposed in this thread.
If you don't mind lets move on with bedding the scope and setting up for the rings. Load development form miles will be next.

 

[meketrefe]

@MilesTeg
you asked about prepping the new brass and forgot to give my opinion.

I measure primer pockets and make sure they are within spec.
What I do is simply spray the brass with my boot leg lube and FL resize it.
If I have a once fired brass I might put a shim on the FL die to stop short
and match the once fired case as close as I can if I am going to shoot
from that rifle. The key is not to bump the shoulders too far back if
I don't have to.
Then take a few cases and measure length looking for the minimum length.
I should be able to trim them at 2.005 and no case should be shorter so
after trimming they all are the same precisely.

Chamfer, deburr and then wash the brass with very hot water and soap/simplegreen
and I am done. Rinse with hot water and baking soda.
I shake it on a towel and let it dry on a carboard box.
Sun in the summer and on top of a furnace vent in the basement in the winter.

 

[MilesTeg]

@MilesTeg
you asked about prepping the new brass and forgot to give my opinion.

I measure primer pockets and make sure they are within spec.
What I do is simply spray the brass with my boot leg lube and FL resize it.
If I have a once fired brass I might put a shim on the FL die to stop short
and match the once fired case as close as I can if I am going to shoot
from that rifle. The key is not to bump the shoulders too far back if
I don't have to.
Then take a few cases and measure length looking for the minimum length.
I should be able to trim them at 2.005 and no case should be shorter so
after trimming they all are the same precisely.

Chamfer, deburr and then wash the brass with very hot water and soap/simplegreen
and I am done. Rinse with hot water and baking soda.
I shake it on a towel and let it dry on a carboard box.
Sun in the summer and on top of a furnace vent in the basement in the winter.

That's the same basic brass prep that I remember doing with new brass. I haven't loaded new brass in about 5 years so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

 

[meketrefe]

I treat new all once fired all the same after is ready to be resized.

Unlike once fired brass, with new brass I do not need to wash it before resizing, segregate by brand / year
and I don't have to worry about removing crimped primers and swagging or trimming those primer pockets in
military brass. Still I always measure a few primer pockets first time to make sure they are within spec.

Optionally used brass I might also segregate by weight and uniform flash holes but it is only for a limited
nr. of rounds. Neck turning might be needed specially if we are forming brass of other calibers and wildcats.

The rest is all the same. Once it gets organized in its own labeled boxes I keep track of
the loads, nr. of firings and also in case I need to anneal once in a while.

It is a process. Once you get into the rhythm is all the same. It requires just a bit of organization, that's all.

 

[ECU Pirates]

@ECU Pirates ,

Like I said nobody is going to argue with your reasons. Nobody knows them better than you.

I don't think what we are doing is complicated or labor intensive. If you read the thread you will see @MilesTeg has not done much yet.
The thread is long to talk about several factors to improve accuracy but in the end all very simple and common things like bedding the scope base.
It literally takes 15 minutes to bed a base and almost no cost. We are just talking and making this some sort of learning / tutorial exercise.
By ordering the rings later he can make sure the optics are as low as they can be avoiding the typical mistake of ordering the rings mount and
scope all together. Rings are one of the most returned items or people end up with a collection of them they do not need.

Regarding the Minute of Deer and 200 yards I think Miles wants to shoot a squirrel at 200 yards right between the eyes and never miss.

You are ok with minute of deer, he wants minute of squirrel. LOL

Regarding not shooting prone I don't understand. you zero your rifle in a stable position. Might also want to do some score shooting for fun. Might
even compete in a local weekend league and want to score high at 200 yards. Still can hunt with that rifle.

I understand you want to be practical about your own circumstances and goals but we should not assume those apply to everyone otherwise we might
be proposing a set of limiting believes that are restrictive in nature and do not really help in any shape or form.

I think everyone I know who is into shooting are happy to improve the accuracy or their firearms and own shooting skills.
I also understand your point of view of being practical for your own goals. But please also understand others desires and goals.

Again so far there is nothing too involved nor complicated proposed in this thread.
If you don't mind lets move on with bedding the scope and setting up for the rings. Load development form miles will be next.

When I said don't JUST shoot from a bench or prone it's because I have never had the chance to get prone (or lug a bench out) to shoot a deer in the north woods. Zero from a bench but practice prone, sitting, standing kneeling ect. I know plenty of hunters who ONLY shoot from the bench then go out and miss (or maim) a deer from another shooting position.

I think you are taking this a bit personally. My intent was not to question what's been stated in this thread. I never once said my circumstances for setting up a hunting rifle are the end all and be all. I just gave an opinion and I'm sticking to it. It has worked for me for years and want others who might be new to hunting to realize it can be as simple as mounting an optic and finding some factory ammo that works. If one enjoys trying to make their rifle as accurate as possible that's fine and a good hobby (as I have said a couple of times). I feel the below suggestions could be a bit intimidating for a new hunter reading a thread titled "hunting rifle". They might say F all that and take up golf.

"- Find out max COAL. For each bullet you are to try this will dictate the length of the rounds with bullets loaded at different depths therefore difference distances from the lands that should show more accuracy.

- For the chamber. Also compare once fired brass w/o resizing vs. a once fired case FL resized with your dies. This will give you a delta (Difference) to work with. Ideally you can just neck size many times or FL size but w/o going all the way pushing the shoulders back.

- Try other ammo including top shelve match ammo but if you are going to reload you will save money. But some super consistent match bullets to try would not hurt. your accuracy load for a hunting rifle should be milder than the full power hunting load. Any new bullet find max coal so
you can calculate distance from the lands."

"I understand you want to be practical about your own circumstances and goals but we should not assume those apply to everyone"

The OP said he wanted a 200 yard deer rifle. I simply stated a way a novice could accomplish that goal if they read this thread.

Carry on and please keep us posted on the results Miles.

 

[meketrefe]

@ECU Pirates
Sorry if I came across a tad short but nothing personal towards you or anybody here.
I think what miles is doing is pretty simple to get the glass properly setup before he gets into the loads.
Again the thread is long but so far nothing has been done. These are still baby steps.

 

[meketrefe]

@MilesTeg

I can post a quick DIY / low budget bedding job in case someone is interested.
You don't need to do this but I think this might help others with other stocks. What do you think?
I will not do it if there is no interest at all. But also from day one @HEX has been kindly asking if we can add
more value content.

I have not bedded any of the Tupperware stocks I put in the recycling bin but I am convinced even one of those
used for this exercise will show another way for the average working man to improve a rifle. IMO better and easier
than a cheap boyds wood stock, and specially for use outdoors in all weather conditions.

I think I am going to bed a Remington 700 ADL just be cause IMO is the worse factory plastic stock I have seen.
I have a few rifles I have never unboxed. I keep them for future projects to use mainly the action.
So I can take one of those and fire it out of the box. Then do a couple of simple things and see how it works.
I also have bases I can install and pretty much do a basic yet solid hunters setup.

Whatever you document it will be also very helpful obviously. WE can also move the stock bedding to a new thread.

 

[Acer-m14]

I think it still need to be little bit more anchoring .. let bubba help you @MilesTeg @meketrefe LOL ...

 

[ECU Pirates]

@MilesTeg

I can post a quick DIY / low budget bedding job in case someone is interested.
You don't need to do this but I think this might help others with other stocks. What do you think?
I will not do it if there is no interest at all. But also from day one @HEX has been kindly asking if we can add
more value content.

I have not bedded any of the Tupperware stocks I put in the recycling bin but I am convinced even one of those
used for this exercise will show another way for the average working man to improve a rifle. IMO better and easier
than a cheap boyds wood stock, and specially for use outdoors in all weather conditions.

I think I am going to bed a Remington 700 ADL just be cause IMO is the worse factory plastic stock I have seen.
I have a few rifles I have never unboxed. I keep them for future projects to use mainly the action.
So I can take one of those and fire it out of the box. Then do a couple of simple things and see how it works.
I also have bases I can install and pretty much do a basic yet solid hunters setup.

Whatever you document it will be also very helpful obviously. WE can also move the stock bedding to a new thread.

Did you say the American is different from most other crap stocks? Harder to bed maybe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[meketrefe]

Did you say the American is different from most other crap stocks? Harder to bed maybe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They all are garbage. The worse is the Remington by a large stretch.
People have been trying things with the amercian and the stock I have not try myself but I can see the same problems.
I guess that is why people end up upgrading stocks with the first money they get.
I would say if it is for hunting / beater then just keep it but then the stock doesn't help with accuracy.

Still one could do a few improvements like stiffen the front end with very little to no cost.

 

[MilesTeg]

Well I finally got the chance to bed the base. It went OK I'm a little nervous that I might have trouble getting the screws out. I don't thing epoxy got to the threads I'm more worried when I tightened it down it worked upward around the but shank. I did have a few hiccups. First I didn't put any Vaseline on the barrel and I should have. The base has a 1/8" overhang that missed on the test fit. I had to shave down some Qtip shanks to fun in there and clean the extra epoxy out. Secondly when I first put the base on the rifle gravity started to slide it out of place. I quickly picked it straight up and drop 2 screws in the holes and replaced the base on the receiver. I definitely put a little too much epoxy on so cleanup was a little more than I had hoped for. When I say too much I could have cut back about as much as one drop from an eye dropper. So I didn't miss it bye much. I tried to clean up with bare Qtips just to test it out against the videos recommendation. The WD40 Qtip worked way better so I highly recommend that.

I only have one question. If I did get epoxy on the screw and have a hard time removing them. Can I or should it just start with an impact driver?

Closing thoughts before pictures. As really a person that doesn't mess with their guns in the gunsmithing sense taking epoxy to a relatively new rifle is troublesome. This is coming from a certified A&P aircraft mechanic, maybe the desk job has made me soft. But considering the whole thing was pretty easy I think this will be the standard for me going forward.


Here's the prepared base.

Here is the epoxy I used and the base with the epoxy on it.


More pictures to follow went I remove the base after it cures.

 

[MilesTeg]

Here are some pictures for the reloaders. The first set are of the new starline brass. The second set are the 130gr TTSX's. I can't wait for the load development.

 

[meketrefe]

Looking good.
If you grease it well nothing should stick. you can use some play-dough too to make sure nothing drops inside the action.
Who would not want two pieces to mate perfectly. Specially something as critical as the scope that is pounded over and over again with every shot.
This is a very simple thing as you said. is not like we are making rocket science here.
The key is preparing things well and cleaning so the epoxy sticks where you want and it doesn't stick where you don't want to.

 

[squib]

I install q-tips in the threaded holes. It serves as a guide for the base during assemblly and removes the excess bedding when removed.

 

[MilesTeg]

I had planned to do that. If you look at the previous page I have a picture with them installed. I removed them right before mixing the epoxy because I was having a hard time keeping them lined up. After pulling everything apart there was some clean up of the threads required. Not much at all but I think if I had kept the Qtips installed there would have been much less cleanup.

I was hoping to get the base torqued down before the wife and kid were awake this morning but come to find out I only have red locktite. Also I couldn't find my 1/4" socket to bit adapter. So hopefully I can run out and get some today. I really want to get that torqued down so I can measure for rings.

Anyways here are some pictures. I surprised how thin of a coat was actually on the base.

 

[squib]

I use nail polish on screw threads (color should match your mood).

 

[MilesTeg]

I use nail polish on screw threads (color should match your mood).

Black it is!

 

[meketrefe]

Looking good.
I would use blue locktite that is designed for that including quemicals and heat.

 

[MilesTeg]

Well I got the locktite and torqued down the base. It's amazing how light 22in-lbs feels when your use to working with bigger stuff. I also did mock up the scope to get measurements. I want to step away and measure it again before I purchase the rings. It ended up being 3 pennies high. I couldn't go 2 without the scope hitting the base in the middle. I'll let the pictures show the results. Also I'm now open to suggestions on what rings to buy. I'm not looking for top end ones but good quality ones that will last the test of time.

 

[MilesTeg]

Any thoughts on these rings.
TPS TSR Picatinny-Style Rings Matte

 

[squib]

Any thoughts on these rings.
TPS TSR Picatinny-Style Rings Matte

Q: Do you have other rifles you want to move the optic to?

A 1 piece scope mount may be better.

 

[MilesTeg]

Q: Do you have other rifles you want to move the optic to?

A 1 piece scope mount may be better.

Nope this will be the gun for this scope. Without adjustable turrets it's worthless to me other than big game hunting.

As far as the one piece scope mount I have to admit I never thought of that. I was always under the perception those were for AR style platforms. Also wouldn't it add unnessarry weight? Another concern would be the added height unless I missed something. I'm not bashing your suggestion I really don't know much about them and looking to learn. Any links or suggested ones to read up on.

 

[meketrefe]

Always choose double screws for added reliability. In classic rings that means 4 screws per ring.
If money is tight the warne maxima of steel are very solid. these OEM style used by nikon, burris, etc... is a vertical split ring so
the one with the bolted rings is to mount and forget. Cannot be taken down.
Warne 201M Scope Mounts Maxima Fixed Ring 1" Medium Matte WR201M | eBay
there is a warne one (very strong too) with a QD lever that can be taken down but not sure I would choose that over the TPS.
Always double screws.

The TPS are an amazing value not too expensive. These provide top rigidity w/o paying for more expensive brands and can be
quickly dismounted.

An integral scope mount will not do anything for you. A good set of rings if you want take out should come back to zero although
I do not suggest fiddling unless there is a tactical advantage for it because you will have to reset the zero and turrets too.

 

[squib]

Nope this will be the gun for this scope. Without adjustable turrets it's worthless to me other than big game hunting.

As far as the one piece scope mount I have to admit I never thought of that. I was always under the perception those were for AR style platforms. Also wouldn't it add unnessarry weight? Another concern would be the added height unless I missed something. I'm not bashing your suggestion I really don't know much about them and looking to learn. Any links or suggested ones to read up on.

If it does not fit your application it's not worth it. 2 steel scope rings are cheap. The weight of the "bridge" between the 2 scope rings on an aluminum one piece is negligible.

 

[meketrefe]

squib,
in my experience it depends on the mount but if the mount is a robust one even in T6 material, the mount body alone can add a few
ounces. A strong mount for an AR is a lot heavier than one of those aeros for example. And if the mount is too light and in aluminum
it will not be that strong.
why do you think the mount is a better option even for removing and remounting the scope?
With a steel base and wide steel rings there is a very solid foundation and will not give anything, not before the scope tube
either bends or breaks. This is why military sniper rifles use this formula and I don't think the objetive is to use the scope
as a replacement for carry handle anyway.
I am not criticizing your reasons, I am just trying to understand why.