@Podmonkey I believe @Farmandguns1 has one of those Lee rifles
Just a place to talk about Kalashnikov rifles
- Thread starter Edwardteach72
- Start date
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Lots of guns are overpriced, many imports are beyond overpriced. AKMs and alike included.
There are over 200 different manufacturers of AKs and those only official ones.
Many do not apply to us 1st world civilians because they are build with selective fire mechanisms for the peoples of the world.
The AKM and AK-74 are long gone in terms of new manufacturing from the original Russian plants. The original ones.
Saigas that are the semiauto version of an AKM in different calibers are great baseline showing the same barrel markings
and seals from mil spec stuff.
Not many years ago one could get these from 175 bucks to 225 both lightly used or brand new.
Then they jumped to something like 350. Molot VEPRs were a tad more (1.5mm receivers) but in line with the best AKMs ever made.
Then one our friend Ubuntu took office things started to go south. There was both, unprecedented demand and
then the import restrictions came into play. Surplus took a huge hit.
So the Izmash and molot in a few years both went from 350 to 400 to, 500, then 600 and then 700 and above.
These w/o compliant conversions just as they were.
At the same time the kits parts market got hit too and we started to consume from those. First was the good stuff to go
like the Yugos, Turkish, Tantals, etc... then the rest until we were left with the bottom barrel stuff that in
then end was suplemented by local parts that were needed anyway for compliance.
So one could get anything from a bottom barrel garbage Century arms conversion to a nice one including the ones
that were mostly if not all domestic quality parts.
In the end we ended up with this non-sense of people paying $700-800 and even up to 1,200 or more for an AKM type
of gun. Some of the best continue to be the russian made (saigas and vpers from the original plant) or any other conversion
like a galil, yugo or something like a custom Krebs that would be more dependent on the manufacturing capabilities of the
vendor than the brand itself when we talk about domestically manufactured or converted. Sill they are old school AKs.
Even the cost in Europe went up due to the high demand.
But lets get real. AKs are great guns but they are crude and antiquated platforms and by design they are not the best
they can be and that is why AKM and type 74 milled or stamped are phased out from service as we know them.
The modern firearms might share some characteristics and the loose fit concept but they are different than the
enthusiast market.
Even a 308 saiga with a beefed up trunion, tenon and 3 lug bolt is a better firearm than the original.
Yet it is constricted by the design of an open receiver with a cover on top. Still a better firearm in many ways than
a M1A socom that is also an outdated design and domestically overpriced firearm.
AKs are supposed to be inexpensive because they were design to be made inexpensively. One might end up paying more
for them in the black market or in a tribal area or south american jungle than in the regular market that is where many civilized
regions go. America is not the most expensive even after being overpriced.
Demand and supply along with bans and imports drive those prices so if one wants something and it is restricted, after
imports, tariffs and all the stuff one might end up paying more and more.
Like guns that cost 150 bucks to manufacture sell for 10 times that. Whatever the market is, dictates what we might pay but
not because they are worth many times more. That is my point.
In Russia one now has to pay more for a saiga sporting rifle from izmash (prime baseline for conversion ) or an equivalent like
a VPO-136 (VEPR AKM) that are original Russian mil spec steel. You know, the type that chews up your cobalt bits, so you know
is good shit.
In Russia one pays around the equivalent to $400 USD that is the equivalent or what it should be in the US after mass import if things were normal
but they are not.
For example: Охотник на Большом. Санкт-Петербург, В.О., Большой пр., 44
What some of the best civilian bound cost in Russia is what I believe one should pay that would be $400, even lets say $500 for a top shelf AKM type
like molot or izmash or equipvalent VEPR or saiga.
At the same time one might pay $1500 for a POS AKM type in the border with India and Pakistan.
Welcome to capitalism.
I love all firearms. I love their designs and how they are made. I love AKM type stuff and its history.
but in terms of buying more stuff I am more realistic now than 20 years ago.
Again this is the result of a misconception: AKs are cheap. A misconception brought about by decades of cheap Kalashnikov imports.
Never minding the fact that they were so cheap because the Russians and other ComBloc nations invested billions into the manufacturing infrastructure necessary for the rapid production of what would become hundreds of millions of these rifles. With such economy of scale they certainly became inexpensive but they use inherently costly, by today's standards, production methods. It takes a large amount of capital to setup the tooling for mass scale stamping. Once that money is spent the items can then be made quite cheaply in terms of materials and labor costs but ot requires a massive industrial complex to support. In comparison we have the AR15 which when it was new was rather expensive to produce but with the advent of CNC machining the design can now be economically produced in small scale, almost cottage industry, manufacturing facilities. With the cessation of cheap communist produced imports we are now starting to see the true cost of the Kalashnikov design and its causing American companies a lot of problems. People are so used to AKs being cheap companies like Century and PSA are forced to build them to a price level and not a quality level. The fact that some manufacturers are starting to see a little success in this endeavor is just a testament to the American manufacturing prowess that still exists in this country. Look at the high end AK manufacturers and what their products are priced at- Companies like Definitive Arms and Krebs Custom, their rifles are above the $2,000 level.
Of you want to bag on overpriced AKs look to Arsenal. They make a fine rifle but in the end they are parts kit builds.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Pod,
Russia continues to produce sporting rifles and high quality civilian version reissues for the equivalent of $400 USD that
is ok and what they should cost here. The same they used to be $175 brand new here with mil spec trunnions and barrels.
I am talking Izmash and Molot plant brand new.
With the AK, in reality, the stamped parts and barrels are the easy part for any level of manufacturing.
Obviously volume, cold forging machines drive prices down as you pointed out but AKs do not have to be costly no matter what.
The problem are the hardened cast parts. Of the parts kits the trunnions and matching bolts are the most sought after
and to be quality ones. Also the bolt rails to be spot welded but one can get a decent receiver with rails for $80 bucks.
But as we know surplus and parts got a huge hit and lots of hings changed with Nobama and thereafter.
A good quality AKM based is a great dependable platform. I like them too but one has to be realistic, they are not
worth what some people want for them. i am happy I got them when they were reasonable.
I understand this is a free world and offer + demand drives prices so if one wants to pay a top dollar for a good one then I guess
that might be what one has to do but, then if one looks carefully, when one gets to certain level of prices, then there are probably
other firearms that make more sense.
I am just quite critical in general of what is happening with the non-sense pricing in some areas.
One thing is clear, one is entitled to spend one's hard earned money however one chooses.
Russia continues to produce sporting rifles and high quality civilian version reissues for the equivalent of $400 USD that
is ok and what they should cost here. The same they used to be $175 brand new here with mil spec trunnions and barrels.
I am talking Izmash and Molot plant brand new.
With the AK, in reality, the stamped parts and barrels are the easy part for any level of manufacturing.
Obviously volume, cold forging machines drive prices down as you pointed out but AKs do not have to be costly no matter what.
The problem are the hardened cast parts. Of the parts kits the trunnions and matching bolts are the most sought after
and to be quality ones. Also the bolt rails to be spot welded but one can get a decent receiver with rails for $80 bucks.
But as we know surplus and parts got a huge hit and lots of hings changed with Nobama and thereafter.
A good quality AKM based is a great dependable platform. I like them too but one has to be realistic, they are not
worth what some people want for them. i am happy I got them when they were reasonable.
I understand this is a free world and offer + demand drives prices so if one wants to pay a top dollar for a good one then I guess
that might be what one has to do but, then if one looks carefully, when one gets to certain level of prices, then there are probably
other firearms that make more sense.
I am just quite critical in general of what is happening with the non-sense pricing in some areas.
One thing is clear, one is entitled to spend one's hard earned money however one chooses.
Russia makes those sporting rifles because they are produced with the same parts by the same people at the same plants as the military rifles
And they would still cost about that much if there wasnt an important ban for Izhevsk arms
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Things changed after the chapter 11 but it looks they are already reorganized and retooled.
The group, owners of the original brand Kalasnikov has two other divisions one is Izmash and the other Baikal that makes some of the sporting shotguns, rifles, revolvers and pistols. Otherwise is all defense small arms manufacturing. Some of the new innovation products we do not get here.
Izmash and molot sporting make great donors with easy steps for compliance. the problem started when they got restricted for import and prices started to go up exponentially.
Look for my threads in the 308 saiga projects and accuracy tests. Amazing little carbine for a bush rifle or defensive platform.
Those used to be great deals and amazing rifles great donors for compliant conversions too.
The group, owners of the original brand Kalasnikov has two other divisions one is Izmash and the other Baikal that makes some of the sporting shotguns, rifles, revolvers and pistols. Otherwise is all defense small arms manufacturing. Some of the new innovation products we do not get here.
Izmash and molot sporting make great donors with easy steps for compliance. the problem started when they got restricted for import and prices started to go up exponentially.
Look for my threads in the 308 saiga projects and accuracy tests. Amazing little carbine for a bush rifle or defensive platform.
Those used to be great deals and amazing rifles great donors for compliant conversions too.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
So I was thinking about this while looking at parts kits the other day. Why can't americans make parts that are on par with russian parts? The foreign parts seem to always be much harder and better quality. Is there a reason the american parts cant be hardened like the foreign parts?
It comes down to cost and profit.
Mainly the trunions, the cost to produce a top quality strong trunion would cost these US companies more to invest than they could sell the parts or builds at the price point people think AKs are worth.
To save on cost and keep us built guns in the price point to sell they all go with cast trunion...
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
It's crazy that the one part that if you could only make one part quality isn't made the way it should be. On an AK if the front trunnion is no good the whole gun is no good. Its the heart of the gun.
That and rivers.
I can't wait until he releases the AK-50. (Guy from the video)
We talked about this. American labor and material costs being what they are, to produce a rifle of equal quality to combloc original stuff you would end up with a rifle around $2,000 or more. Most folks don't want to pay even half that on an AK so either corners get cut, typically in steel quality and heat treat, or a manufacturer needs to refine a really, really good, efficient manufacturing process. I actually think that though the iterative design process, seeing what works and what doesn't, American AKs are becoming a good quality option now. Ots actually okay to cut costs by using less expensive materials and simpler manufacturing processes as long as an sound engineering method has been undergone to ensure such does not compromise the overall quality of a product. And I think this process is exactly what American AKs are going through.
If you want a top shelf no compromise AK go to Definitive Arms or Krebs Customs and get ready to drop $2,500. You'll have a damn fine Kalashnikov pattern rifle though.
Even the current Russian production is not as good as it once was. Its said the rifles and components destined for commercial sale is of lesser quality than the Military production. Don't know if that's really true.
I do know that in a podcast with Tim from MAC
The proprietor of Definitive Arms says that even with Saiga and Veprs his shop must occasionally correct glaring manufacturing defects before they can begin their conversions.
Or, you can spend a tad less on a new Galil Ace and also get an excellent rifle. Really, really excellent I can assure you. Anyone that scooped up the $1200 Galil Ace blems from Classic got a killer deal.
Regular street price is around $1,600-1,700 for the 5.56 and 7.62x39 guns. Upper AR15 range in other words. The 308s are actually very competitively priced with other modern 308 semi autos.
After the AWB sunsetted, not long after I picked up a Colt 6920 (I miss the days when all you needed to do to ensure you got the best AR you could was to see it said "Colt" on the side)
I picked up a Bulgarian parts kit build, done by some anonymous builder, from o pawn shop.
Whoever put it together did a really good job with it, all the rivets were tight and perfect, no cant on the front sight post (probably shimmed the barrel) and the trunions were square and true. It shot well too, as good as my Colt. But with shittier sights. That rifle along with my FAL Para, I really miss it.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
So,
Aside the fact that a nice AK is a dependable gun and one might not mind paying more for them what would you
consider instead when you reach a certain price?
In the 308 there is a need for something unique. I see good options but not something one could say this is the one
platform that is popular, reliable and could do it all.
Lets leave the AR variants out for now.
Aside the fact that a nice AK is a dependable gun and one might not mind paying more for them what would you
consider instead when you reach a certain price?
In the 308 there is a need for something unique. I see good options but not something one could say this is the one
platform that is popular, reliable and could do it all.
Lets leave the AR variants out for now.
Honestly I'll take one in 54r over .308
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
why the 54R?
Mostly for the LOLs
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
OK. cannot argue with that! lol
seriously now,
Years ago I read a transcript my buddy Patrick passed me from a couple of small arms engineers from Izmash and were
basically concluding that the sporting rifles for larger calibers with beefed up trunions and shanks showed more consistency.
The explanation is that an AK, that is inherently not a refined gun by any means, and that heavy mass that is slightly off
center can benefit from those simple upgrades for taming some of the secondary vibrations.
I do believe that is why the saiga 308 in 16" is a more consistent than the 21" one because it is not just
the harmonics involved but the vibration of the entire group that has to be dampened.
I also found out that a floating handguard with a dampener just ahead of the chamber did the most to help
with consistency.
I did extensive testing with a conversion. while 16" is not the ideal for most modern carbines it is even less
ideal for any medium military cartridges like the 308 or the 54R no matter what firearm and carbine.
But the 16" 308 is such handy AKM type carbine and I liked it so much I sold the M1A socom and got two 308s plus a
bunch of mags, 1k ammo and still had some money left. The socom was not horrible but clearly oversold
and over valued considering what really is.
Anyway, according to them both the 5.56 (that I also got) as well as the 308 make these guns a superior platform and it is not just
because of the improvements and quality of the guns but that compounded with the consistency of western ammunition.
This doesn't mean all eastern ammo is bad but when it comes to quality loads western cartriges outperform
the eastern and one can find lots of bullets and caliber choices for almost anything. Possibly a lot more offered that what
is really needed.
Perhaps the 7.62x39 was fun just because it is the original but I have not been shooting that one for years
just because of other projects and like any slow moving, light for caliber 30 caliber is not the ideal trajectory.
Well, at least the 7.62x39 has the case capacity to do something if one reloads vs. the rather anemic whisper/BO.
I'm not into these semi auto SAW conversions.
They are just big heavy rifles on a bipod. I'd rather have a precision rifle for something matching that description.
Did you know that the Russsians employed so many marksman because they determined that sharpshooters and snipers had a similar suppressive effect on enemy troops as machine guns?
Yup and in good ol fashion the US always dropped their sniper programs after half ass throwing them together during a war, then thinking nah these are stupid, and the Russians and other countries kept up with the programs, then next war breaks out and the US is getting pinned down by single man squads and rush to rebuild their sniper programs.
And the Russians probably figured this out after the Winter War with Finnland and it was Simo Häyhä who single handedly thought them that lesson
Marksman ship is a force multiplier.
I'm also trying to get a feel for Kalashnikov USA if they are Good, meh PSA level, or trash trash
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Also they sent people to the front with a mosin and a couple of 5rd clips to either get killed right away or die from exposure and no support. Commqnders never had a huge consideration for their troops lives and effectivness. Just keep sending more until the enemy also freezes and runs out of bullets.
History repeating itself, I guess.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
A semiauto SAW is like buying a salvaged ferrari with a geo metro engine inside to then take your 5 kids to school and soccer practice.
That is how much sense it makes.
That is how much sense it makes.
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I mean if the soon to be released fostech echo trigger firs in the RPK then it could almost be cool
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Yes
Cool for show and tell, sure.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Those paper dinner plates at the range at 25 yards do not stand a chance to survive such firepower! Lol
Shadow rider
6.5 Creedmoor
My conversion...I prefer the traditional look!
But alas, it resides in Tx. now, comfy in my son's safe!
Before:
After:
But alas, it resides in Tx. now, comfy in my son's safe!
Before:
After:
I love the redish look.. red wood is the best hahaha
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
Big improvement. And now 50% more dangerous.