Most reliable Battle rifle -AR308?

[Podmonkey]

After a few days of wearing 25 lbs, it'll be taken off. Trust me.

I hated wearing even my K Pot. I have much respect for our dudes overseas running around with near their own weight in gear in 120º heat.
In training used to ditch as much of my battle rattle as I thought I could get away with at the first opportunity. Sapi plate was always the first to go, CO can't tell when you've ditched it.

 

[meketrefe]

I hated wearing even my K Pot. I have much respect for our dudes overseas running around with near their own weight in gear in 120º heat.
In training used to ditch as much of my battle rattle as I thought I could get away with at the first opportunity. Sapi plate was always the first to go, CO can't tell when you've ditched it.

Some people bitch about the 5.56 all the time. The AR15 was designed around the 223 and not the other way around.
Eugene Stoner said several times he had 3 main requirements from the Army when he developed the AR15:

A) Weight
B) Weight
C) Weight

In the ideal world I would love to have a 300 WM with the weight, heat and recoil of a 22LR but unfortunately physics do not work
that way.
The round for the MBR could have easily been a 80-09gr 6mm similar to the 6x45 with 2 or 3 extra grains of powder but anything
larger than lets say a 6.8 is a big No No in terms of the sacrifices one makes in firepower / weight. So that is why the 308 and
5.56 have clear roles and they are not going anywhere any time soon. The weight is problem is pretty real and it is not getting
any better.

There is always a tradeoff no matter how you look at it.

 

[stuck in ny]

Some people bitch about the 5.56 all the time. The AR15 was designed around the 223 and not the other way around.
Eugene Stoner said several times he had 3 main requirements from the Army when he developed the AR15:

A) Weight
B) Weight
C) Weight

In the ideal world I would love to have a 300 WM with the weight, heat and recoil of a 22LR but unfortunately physics do not work
that way.
The round for the MBR could have easily been a 80-09gr 6mm similar to the 6x45 with 2 or 3 extra grains of powder but anything
larger than lets say a 6.8 is a big No No in terms of the sacrifices one makes in firepower / weight. So that is why the 308 and
5.56 have clear roles and they are not going anywhere any time soon. The weight is problem is pretty real and it is not getting
any better.

There is always a tradeoff no matter how you look at it.

Seems like a lot of nations wanted their rifles to have ammo commonality with the mgs though.
The old German army seems pretty sensible to me. MG3 general purpose machine guns, G3 rifles, and mp5 smgs. Or the British- Bren lmgs, FALs and Sterling smgs.

 

[Snappo]

Some people bitch about the 5.56 all the time. The AR15 was designed around the 223 and not the other way around.
Eugene Stoner said several times he had 3 main requirements from the Army when he developed the AR15:

A) Weight
B) Weight
C) Weight

In the ideal world I would love to have a 300 WM with the weight, heat and recoil of a 22LR but unfortunately physics do not work
that way.
The round for the MBR could have easily been a 80-09gr 6mm similar to the 6x45 with 2 or 3 extra grains of powder but anything
larger than lets say a 6.8 is a big No No in terms of the sacrifices one makes in firepower / weight. So that is why the 308 and
5.56 have clear roles and they are not going anywhere any time soon. The weight is problem is pretty real and it is not getting
any better.

There is always a tradeoff no matter how you look at it.

Someone gave you completely incorrect information. Eugene Stoner did not design the AR with .223 in mind. That came as a request from US Army after seeing and firing his original design. I forget whst he originally intended as the cartridge but i will check Google.

7.62x51 and then .222 Remington.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/gundig...6-the-rifle-that-was-never-supposed-to-be/amp

 

[MilesTeg]

Someone gave you completely incorrect information. Eugene Stoner did NOT design the AR with .223 in mind. That came as a request from US Army after seeing and firing his original design. I forget whst he originally intended as the cartridge but it was a larger diameter.

Your half remembering right, meke is correct also. The AR 10 came first in 308. But because of the requirements from the trials, the AR 15 was born. Like make said this was primarily a weight concern and with capacity next.

 

[dsdmmat]

@Snappo M16: This is the first operational version of the rifle and was only adopted by the US Air Force initially. Among its distinctive features are a triangular shaped forward hand guard, no cleaning compartment in the stock (as Colt famously declared that this rifle was so advanced that it didn't need one), no forward assist lever and a duckbill shaped flash suppressor at the muzzle. The original version was issued with a 20 round magazine. It is capable of selecting firing modes and can fire in single-shot as well as fully automatic modes. The barrel has a rifling twist of 1 turn in 12 inches. Firearms History, Technology & Development: The M16 Family - I

The army and marines wanted the M14 and were forced to adopt the M16

 

[meketrefe]

Someone gave you completely incorrect information. Eugene Stoner did not design the AR with .223 in mind. That came as a request from US Army after seeing and firing his original design. I forget whst he originally intended as the cartridge but i will check Google.

7.62x51 and then .222 Remington.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/gundig...6-the-rifle-that-was-never-supposed-to-be/amp

In one meeting with General Kalashnikov they talked about this joking about his requirements and both got a laugh.
Of course this was a scaled down from the 308 and then started with the 222 ... big difference from the 223 right?
Again, weight, weight, weight. ... that was what he said. That was when they went LOL.
...
on another note General Kalashnikov confessed of all the development he was most proud of the dust cover, selector/safety lever. Who knew right?

These things are in the books ..perhaps the history of the AR... I forgot... I have several and read long time ago. Maybe my memory is not as good but I still remember many details. Like the winter trials in Alaska and how they fvcked up maintenance. 1/2 was ignorance and 1/2 resistance to change.

 

[Podmonkey]

Actually the M16 and the 5.56x45 was developed and adopted to improve volume of fire. The reduced weight of the rifle and round was in service of an increased ammo loadout. The initial project was named SALVO after all.

 

[meketrefe]

@Snappo M16: This is the first operational version of the rifle and was only adopted by the US Air Force initially. Among its distinctive features are a triangular shaped forward hand guard, no cleaning compartment in the stock (as Colt famously declared that this rifle was so advanced that it didn't need one), no forward assist lever and a duckbill shaped flash suppressor at the muzzle. The original version was issued with a 20 round magazine. It is capable of selecting firing modes and can fire in single-shot as well as fully automatic modes. The barrel has a rifling twist of 1 turn in 12 inches. Firearms History, Technology & Development: The M16 Family - I

The army and marines wanted the M14 and were forced to adopt the M16

That's exactly right. The 22 caliber was a scaled down version of the 308 he first developed.
There were several prototypes in between like it is expected with any new development.

 

[Podmonkey]

This is a very long video I know but pop some popcorn and watch the whole thing, it comprehensively explains what went wrong with the M16's introduction in Vietnam and why. Long story short: Politics. He also neatly dispelles all the AR myths. After this I highly recommend his two part series on the M4 carbine.

 

[Snappo]

In one meeting with General Kalashnikov they talked about this joking about his requirements and both got a laugh.
Of course this was a scaled down from the 308 and then started with the 222 ... big difference from the 223 right?
Again, weight, weight, weight. ... that was what he said. That was when they went LOL.
...
on another note General Kalashnikov confessed of all the development he was most proud of the dust cover, selector/safety lever. Who knew right?

These things are in the books ..perhaps the history of the AR... I forgot... I have several and read long time ago. Maybe my memory is not as good but I still remember many details. Like the winter trials in Alaska and how they fvcked up maintenance. 1/2 was ignorance and 1/2 resistance to change.

I kind of think something bad happened with the .222. Like chamber pressure issues or something like that? I dunno. But there was some profound mechanical issue that drove them from .222 Remington to .223 Winchester. But back to the original issue - Eugene Stoner did the ArmaLite in .308 and they actually won the contract and took it away from Springfield Armory and the M14. But that contract was short lived because the Army wanted 22 caliber for the ability to carry way more rounds of ammo per soldier. I saw a movie about it a year ago and linked it to everyone. I want to say the documentary was hosted by the curator from the national museum of military weapons? He was kind of a hippy trippy looking guy, and he did a 10 part series and one covered Gene Stoner and Mikail Kalashnikov. I like it so much I bought the DVD set from Amazon. If you guys want to see it, I can dig through my DVD's and see if I can find it. It was a history of major weapons from like the 1600's to modern stuff.

 

[stuck in ny]

I kind of think something bad happened with the .222. Like chamber pressure issues or something like that? I dunno. But there was some profound mechanical issue that drove them from .222 Remington to .223 Winchester. But back to the original issue - Eugene Stoner did the ArmaLite in .308 and they actually won the contract and took it away from Springfield Armory and the M14. But that contract was short lived because the Army wanted 22 caliber for the ability to carry way more rounds of ammo per soldier. I saw a movie about it a year ago and linked it to everyone. I want to say the documentary was hosted by the curator from the national museum of military weapons? He was kind of a hippy trippy looking guy, and he did a 10 part series and one covered Gene Stoner and Mikail Kalashnikov. I like it so much I bought the DVD set from Amazon. If you guys want to see it, I can dig through my DVD's and see if I can find it. It was a history of major weapons from like the 1600's to modern stuff.

It wasn't the history channel "tales of the gun" m16 episode?

 

[dsdmmat]

I kind of think something bad happened with the .222. Like chamber pressure issues or something like that? I dunno. But there was some profound mechanical issue that drove them from .222 Remington to .223 Winchester. But back to the original issue - Eugene Stoner did the ArmaLite in .308 and they actually won the contract and took it away from Springfield Armory and the M14. But that contract was short lived because the Army wanted 22 caliber for the ability to carry way more rounds of ammo per soldier. I saw a movie about it a year ago and linked it to everyone. I want to say the documentary was hosted by the curator from the national museum of military weapons? He was kind of a hippy trippy looking guy, and he did a 10 part series and one covered Gene Stoner and Mikail Kalashnikov. I like it so much I bought the DVD set from Amazon. If you guys want to see it, I can dig through my DVD's and see if I can find it. It was a history of major weapons from like the 1600's to modern stuff.

McNamara forced the adoption of the M16 onto the services. The USAF wanted the M16 for their security forces, the Army and Marines wanted the M14. Adoption – M16 Blog

 

[stuck in ny]

McNamara forced the adoption of the M16 onto the services. The USAF wanted the M16 for their security forces, the Army and Marines wantd the M14. Adoption – M16 Blog

The AF bought select fire ar15s to replace their m2 carbines.

 

[Marine Cpl]

McNamara forced the adoption of the M16 onto the services. The USAF wanted the M16 for their security forces, the Army and Marines wanted the M14. Adoption – M16 Blog

Well thank God for the Air Force.

 

[Snappo]

The AF bought select fire ar15s to replace their m2 carbines.

I enlisted in USAF in 1979. So by the time I got there it was all M16's and M24's. Could you imagine being assigned an M2 carbine? Yuck! In fact, I had bought my first 30 carbine in 1981 while at Hill AFB for like $50 and the thing was beyond garbage. I bought 2 more from CMP many years later and eventually gave all 3 to my son and told him I never wanted to see them again. I think he hated them too and sold them.

 

[dsdmmat]

The AR-15/M16: The rifle that was never supposed to be

 

[stuck in ny]

I enlisted in USAF in 1979. So by the time I got there it was all M16's and M24's. Could you imagine being assigned an M2 carbine? Yuck! In fact, I had bought my first 30 carbine in 1981 while at Hill AFB for like $50 and the thing was beyond garbage. I bought 2 more from CMP many years later and eventually gave all 3 to my son and told him I never wanted to see them again. I think he hated them too and sold them.

FYI these were not part of the later adoption of the xm16/xm16e1/m16a1. They had not forward assist, chromed bolt carrier groups, and unretained take down pins.

 

[Podmonkey]

It wasn't the history channel "tales of the gun" m16 episode?

No, this one is far better than that. The tales of the gun one is full of falsehoods and inaccuracies.

 

[meketrefe]

I kind of think something bad happened with the .222. Like chamber pressure issues or something like that? I dunno. But there was some profound mechanical issue that drove them from .222 Remington to .223 Winchester. But back to the original issue - Eugene Stoner did the ArmaLite in .308 and they actually won the contract and took it away from Springfield Armory and the M14. But that contract was short lived because the Army wanted 22 caliber for the ability to carry way more rounds of ammo per soldier. I saw a movie about it a year ago and linked it to everyone. I want to say the documentary was hosted by the curator from the national museum of military weapons? He was kind of a hippy trippy looking guy, and he did a 10 part series and one covered Gene Stoner and Mikail Kalashnikov. I like it so much I bought the DVD set from Amazon. If you guys want to see it, I can dig through my DVD's and see if I can find it. It was a history of major weapons from like the 1600's to modern stuff.

The main reason was the speed. They wanted more speed so the easy route was to stretch and reinforce the case to run with more powder and 60k psi.

I think I know the videos you are talking about. I have seen a few documentaries over the years.
One might be able to find some of these in youtube now.
After you learn about the meetings between Stoner and Klv. you realize how down to earth those guys were even with all the popularity. One did great and the otehr not so grate in terms of monetary return for obvious reasons.
If you look at the history of the AK vs the AR it seems like a firearms version of the Linux vs. Windows. LOL

AK = Biker Bitch.
AR = City Diva.

 

[Snappo]

It wasn't the history channel "tales of the gun" m16 episode?

No - I think I found it. I'm 99% sure this is it: Guns - The Evolution of Firearms. Guns: The Evolution of Firearms - DocuWiki

The Narator was Coby Batty, and the guy who he interviewed a lot was a curator of some firearms museum. I'm like 75% sure it was the National Firearms Museum.

 

[Snappo]

Bringing us back to the original topic of most accurate battle rifles; my weapons ownership probably brings me to roughly the following order.

1) Imbel FN-FAL. Very rugged, reliable, and accurate.

2) Galil and Golani. Lighter than a 30 cal, as it is basically an Israeli designed AK47 that shoots AR15 ammo. Easy to shoot and reasonably accurate.

3) Springfield Armory M1A and Polytech M14. The National Match is accurate and can be punished; though the scope mount design is a side mount. SOCOM-II is also rugged, and the shorter barrel makes it a good choice for CQB.

4) Colt SP1 and SP2. Reliable in original form, but when I put modern tops on it with Bushmaster pins; the weapons became unreliable. 2 jams per magazine. Modern Bushmaster lower and Stag Arms lower were not problematic.

5) Uzi Model B and Model 45. Really not viable beyond 100 meters but great in a CQB.

 

[meketrefe]

Les Baer, nothing too flashy. It just shoots the lights off.
These are not the cheapest but just to say the importance of high
end barrels and internals including top trigger groups. The rest is just a shell.
Nothing comes close to the AR.

Les Baer Custom Inc.

 

[GuyMontag]

That's impressive meketrefe, appreciate the eyeopener.


Damn, just checked out the price, but the results are tough to argue against.

Any chance you've compared one to a JP?

 

[Eddie Gunks]

I know how this goes.....it was a 3 shot group....the flier missed the paper so now you list it as a two shot group?

 

[Podmonkey]

Some people bitch about the 5.56 all the time. The AR15 was designed around the 223 and not the other way around.

Actually It depends on how you look at it. The early .22 portion of the SALVO concept was based off .222 commercial loads. But the .222 couldn't quite meet performance goals so from it the .222 Mangum and later the .223 were developed from it. The rifle and round were tailored for each other simultaneously.

 

[zzrguy]

I've shot a. Apple of favors and I can't wait till I can buy one.

 

[zzrguy]

I've shot a. Apple of favors and I can't wait till I can buy one.

Holly shit auto correct F'd that up.
I shoot a couple of Tavors and I can't wait till I can buy one.

 

[meketrefe]

That's impressive meketrefe, appreciate the eyeopener.


Damn, just checked out the price, but the results are tough to argue against.

Any chance you've compared one to a JP?

I don't think there are any advanages with the JP. Overpriced IMO.
That is not my target but I will take it.
I have the mega with a krieger barrel and it is the same. I can dig out some targets from that one.
The key is in the group, trigger and if one can make sure the bolt is headspaced at the time of chambering the barrel
and make it SAAMI standard. Les Baer do it right. No secrets there. When they say 1/2 MOA is real half moa and not
internet 1/2 moa.
Just so I am clear a Krieger barrel will run anytihng between 550 to 600 matched to the bolt just the barrel alone.
I also had good results with Lothar Walther LW50 ordered from their custom shop. They sent with a dpms matched bolt.
Les baer uses a Geissele trigger that are hard to beat. I have that one and have also one I got from FA with the bronce
bushing also 2 stage.

Any of these formulas leaves the knights in the dust. ...talking about overpriced and on top not that great.

Again there is no secret on this and one has to put the money where it matters.

 

[meketrefe]

BTW the BAT extensions are amazing just like their R700 receivers. Nothing comes close for a nice extension.
I am using this in a new 7mm-08 upper.