Most reliable Battle rifle -AR308?

[Marine Cpl]

If you truly want a "battle rifle" then the SAFE Act is irrelevant and in the situations where you need one you might as well pull out the real thing and start spraying.

I agree.

I will also add that as far as battle rifles go in my opinion, it isn't the .308. I'd much rather have a 6 pound .223 loaded with the right ammo that doesn't fragment but rather stays together while expanding up to .50 after hitting soft flesh.

There is nothing a .308 round will do to a fragile human chest that .223 with the right expanding ammo can't do. The .223 can be used to engage up to about 500 yards reliably.The .308 wins big time though in the range department way past 500 yards but will we be engaging targets at 500 plus yards up to about 800 to 1000?

I say no so the extra weight and the much fewer amount of rounds you can carry is not worth it.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I agree.

I will also add that as far as battle rifles go in my opinion, it isn't the .308. I'd much rather have a 6 pound .223 loaded with the right ammo that doesn't fragment but rather stays together while expanding up to .50 after hitting soft flesh.

There is nothing a .308 round will do to a fragile human chest that .223 with the right expanding ammo can't do. The .223 can be used to engage up to about 500 yards reliably.The .308 wins big time though in the range department way past 500 yards but will we be engaging targets at 500 plus yards up to about 800 to 1000?

I say no so the extra weight and the much fewer amount of rounds you can carry is not worth it.

I hate talking about SHTF because well... because. But I think about all the people that will have body armor. Those are the ones to worry about. Everyone else or the "soft fleshers" are on equal ground. But the ones with body armor most likely are prepped a little bit better than the average joe. Maybe maybe not. They don't even necessarily have to have better training but body armor in of itself is a slight advantage. So even if they have body armor that can stop .308 itself I would rather have the force behind the .308 hit that armor than .223. I personally have ceramics rated for .308 AP but would much rather take a hit from 223. Just another way of looking at the 2 calibers.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I hate talking about SHTF because well... because. But I think about all the people that will have body armor. Those are the ones to worry about. Everyone else or the "soft fleshers" are on equal ground. But the ones with body armor most likely are prepped a little bit better than the average joe. Maybe maybe not. They don't even necessarily have to have better training but body armor in of itself is a slight advantage. So even if they have body armor that can stop .308 itself I would rather have the force behind the .308 hit that armor than .223. I personally have ceramics rated for .308 AP but would much rather take a hit from 223. Just another way of looking at the 2 calibers.

The Box O' Truth #24 - Sniper Against Armor - The Box O' Truth

 

[freddy]

The .308 turns cover into concealment!

 

[meketrefe]

hi Snappo,
I am not trying to diminish the merits of the platform that are many but, once again, no matter how much money one dumps into them, they are not consistent "repeatable" shooters. they are good shooters and reliable but they have their limitations that we cannot overcome. I am talking the type of repeatable accuracy, like the type one would expect after dumping $5K on a high precision system. I don't know if you guys remember Kevin from the other side but he had issues too and dumped even more money into them. He is actually a professional competition shooter and goes to the ARMY sniper competitions so if he and others like him could not make the formula work, nobody could. I have no experience with the Norinco so I don't know but others have and I know what you are saying but there is no consistent formula for these guns. I had a FA fitted with the best barrel I could find from Krieger line, headspaced to SAAMI(zero TO), McMillan, all bedded and could not shoot straight 3 days in a row. This done twice actually.
For me the socom was more like an impulse buy, not a bad gun at all ,that is for sure, but a tad bulky and something didn't click between us.
This should not deter anyone from investing on the platform that is an awesome system but just to make sure one doesn't spend like crazy because more times than not will not make a darn difference. ...I mean, for most people when you get into the $ X thousands it is a substantial investment for most pockets. As you know it is all about eliminating variables in the name of repetability so it is frustrating when the variable doesn't move no matter how much one spends in some equipment.
The good thing is, the quality ones they seem to have good resell value should one decide to go a different route.

I am done with experimentation. I got the ARs for precission and the AKMs to go beat the bushes both with unparalleled popularity and support.
I also sold the FNAR for the same reasons.
If I find a AG42B in good condition then I will grab it but otherwise I am not looking for more projects other than additional uppers for the ARs.

 

[freddy]

hi Snappo,
I am not trying to diminish the merits of the platform that are many but, once again, no matter how much money one dumps into them, they are not consistent "repeatable" shooters. they are good shooters and reliable but they have their limitations that we cannot overcome. I am talking the type of repeatable accuracy, like the type one would expect after dumping $5K on a high precision system. I don't know if you guys remember Kevin from the other side but he had issues too and dumped even more money into them. He is actually a professional competition shooter and goes to the ARMY sniper competitions so if he and others like him could not make the formula work, nobody could. I have no experience with the Norinco so I don't know but others have and I know what you are saying but there is no consistent formula for these guns. I had a FA fitted with the best barrel I could find from Krieger line, headspaced to SAAMI(zero TO), McMillan, all bedded and could not shoot straight 3 days in a row. This done twice actually.
For me the socom was more like an impulse buy, not a bad gun at all ,that is for sure, but a tad bulky and something didn't click between us.
This should not deter anyone from investing on the platform that is an awesome system but just to make sure one doesn't spend like crazy because more times than not will not make a darn difference. ...I mean, for most people when you get into the $ X thousands it is a substantial investment for most pockets. As you know it is all about eliminating variables in the name of repetability so it is frustrating when the variable doesn't move no matter how much one spends in some equipment.
The good thing is, the quality ones they seem to have good resell value should one decide to go a different route.

I am done with experimentation. I got the ARs for precission and the AKMs for go beat the bushes both with unparalleled popularity and support.
I also sold the FNAR for the same reasons.
If I find a AG42B in good condition then I will grab it but otherwise I am not looking for more projects other than additional uppers for the ARs.

And what are the big downsides to the SCAR 17?

 

[meketrefe]

And what are the big downsides to the SCAR 17?

Personally I think a gun on that category should not have a reciprocating bolt handle.
Also is not that well balanced even with the lightest barrels and for those reasons cannot achieve top accuracy.
Bolt mass is a bit off center. Not much but it is not as smooth as other pistons like the AR.
But it is a fine firearm though. I think the 2 main reaons that kill this option are:
A) Proprietary design with few options / aftermarket.
B) The FN customer support. This sucks big time. If you are LEO or military they will suck d!ck but if you are
a civilian customer embrace for whatever should you need anything from them.
I had an issue with the FNAR and I experienced the pain of they civilian market horrible customer service.
After some research and consultations I found that that this is the norm.
Not a good feeling for a more exclusive platform with so little 3rd party aftermarket and support.
I hope this makes sense.
Coolness is temporary. Function and sustainability is for ever.
That is why I tend to bet more in mainstream service platforms.

Think about what bullet/bullets you need to shoot and then the rest get what you want but be a bit practical
since there are many decent platforms that can send that mail.

I also had my share of pain with the FAL. So I am not going back there but hey!.... this is me. Everyone is different.

 

[meketrefe]

And for those in Newyorkistan who decided to comply with the SAFE BS we talked before about several other options
that are quite simple like the FRS for the AR and the TC stock for the AKM.
This is acutually quite economic to convert and pretty functional. The comb is even better than the original.
Although with the crazy prices they are putting on the izmash and molot I don't know if I would invest in one right
now. I remember my first saiga I got for like $175 many years ago. crazy!

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

The Box O' Truth #24 - Sniper Against Armor - The Box O' Truth

Thanks. This shows exactly what I was trying to convey.



223 on 3 vests and 3 plates



308 on 3 vests and 3 plates




223 on 3 vests but where is the .308 on 3 vests?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Thanks. This shows exactly what I was trying to convey.

View attachment 12365

223 on 3 vests and 3 plates

View attachment 12366

308 on 3 vests and 3 plates


View attachment 12368

223 on 3 vests but where is the .308 through 3 vests?

You should use a 12 gauge slug then.

 

[meketrefe]

It seems the article doesn't mention what type of vest or plates, what is class III?
So it is a bit arbitrary but it also gives some clues about what happens in terminal ballistics when
applied in different media.
Speed is the key. A stout bullet too.
In real life one of the most challenging hard barriers are glass including automotive glass.
What we see in the movies about the shooter popping the guy inside the bank is all fiction.
Windows in many banks and jewellery stores is much thicker and will take an AP round to push clean.
And then of course in the absence of hard barriers are hardly the best option due to the potential of clean
pass through. With all that said the 308 ball is a proven car stopper for most commercial vehicles and
the extra momentum is noticeable no matter what.
So the shooters stick to popular ammo (lets say service 175gr bthp) and use proper tactics like waiting for
the right time to make good contact.
The 40 caliber like the 45 and heavy 9mm rounds (any heavy slow moving round in pistol) suffer from the
lack of speed. After some shootings forensics have found 40 cal rounds sitting in the back seat of a car
after going trough automotive glass in the front. This is particular hard specially with modern carts with
very shallow angles on the glass done to make them more fuel efficient.
If one has this type of tactical situations in mind (like a patrol) it is a good idea to stick to fast moving
projectiles and stout rounds that can expand well in soft tissue even after going through intermediate or
hard barrier. TSX, TTSX, bonded like Winchester, nosler or others, even swift if you want to pay the price of the bullet.
Lots of good options if one cannot get to the most modern and plentiful service ammo.
Anyone serious about these tactics will obviously stay away from the whisper/blackout and AK47 that will fail to penetrate
hard barrier. the AK actually can pump a 110gr past 2600fps but I don't see anyone reloading this 1/2 cat when
you have the other options available including the amazing 6.8 that can put a 85gr solid close to 3000fps from a
16" barrel.
A sniper in a swat team in an urban environment might resort to a couple of rounds with same trajectories
for moderate range engagements and of course depending on where they operate, tactics and what not.
There is really nothing to be invented here.

 

[Podmonkey]

Move out of NY then get one of these

and put one of these

or these

on it, boom done.

 

[Shadow2]

I'm with the M1A camp. My only criticism is they could use an update to run SR-25 mags

 

[Podmonkey]

I'm with the M1A camp. My only criticism is they could use an update to run SR-25 mags

Yeah, the only thing you give up with a NY compliant M1A is the muzzle device which isn't a big deal. Unless its the socom version which without a flashhider, I imagine is like setting off a flashbang in your face when fired.

 

[Shadow2]

Agree The standard M1A has nothing but a bird cage flash hider so it really is no lose ....

Yeah, the only thing you give up with a NY compliant M1A is the muzzle device which isn't a big deal. Unless its the socom version which without a flashhider, I imagine is like setting off a flashbang in your face when fired.

 

[Frankly]

I'm just wondering where, in a SHTF scenario, we have more than 100 yard shots in the Northeast?

Is BLM marching up my street? Or will Anti-Fa snipers be plinking at me like Enemies at the Gates?

Frankly my nice semi-auto shotgun shoots slugs quite accurately out to 100 yards and I have no legal qualms about it.

 

[Podmonkey]

I'm just wondering where, in a SHTF scenario, we have more than 100 yard shots in the Northeast?

Is BLM marching up my street? Or will Anti-Fa snipers be plinking at me like Enemies at the Gates?

Frankly my nice semi-auto shotgun shoots slugs quite accurately out to 100 yards and I have no legal qualms about it.

Short of a total collapse of law and order. I think its difficult to establish a credible threat to ones safety much beyond 25 yards. I think the utility of 308 for self defense lay in punching body armor. Its not too far fetched to imagine home invaders with body armor.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Unless you are wearing heavy ceramic plate, a .223 will punch through any vest a .308 can.

In the box of truth, they both punched through 3 level 3 rated pistol vests I believe. In a SHTF scenario, I doubt we will see people wearing more than pistol vests. Rifle vests with plate weigh in excess of 25 lbs.

 

[Podmonkey]

Unless you are wearing heavy ceramic plate, a .223 will punch through any vest a .308 can.

In the box of truth, they both punched through 3 level 3 rated pistol vests I believe. In a SHTF scenario, I doubt we will see people wearing more than pistol vests. Rifle vests with plate weigh in excess of 25 lbs.

You might see improvised armor. Mild steel plates and such................ maybe..... frying pans?

 

[Podmonkey]

30-06 M2 AP is still legal right? Thats your armor pen answer.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You might see improvised armor. Mild steel plates and such................ maybe..... frying pans?
View attachment 12375

Those people may evade the anemic .45 Acp but not much of anything else. Lol

 

[Podmonkey]

Those people may evade the anemic .45 Acp but not much of anything else. Lol

No reason similar improvisations couldn't be met in a riot situation.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Here is thething about the SCAR.......

Customer service sucks. But they never need servicing.....so it is a win.

My scar 16 has 20,000+ rounds on it. I can consistently hit 300 yard 3 gun targets at will.

My scar 17 has hit 2 moa target at 875 yards using 175SMK with a 1:12 twiat pencil barrel with me at the controls.... i dont shoot all that good really.....FWIW the internet says this is impossible. .

For small groups i let my buddy do all of my testing.

The reciprocating CH is a pain. It is a self correcting problem. Watch out for the CH when bracing on a doorway.

Biggest issue i have is with the small handguard. If u r not careful your barrel always ends up on the barracade.

 

[Podmonkey]

Here is thething about the SCAR.......

Customer service sucks. But they never need servicing.....so it is a win.

My scar 16 has 20,000+ rounds on it. I can consistently hit 300 yard 3 gun targets at will.

My scar 17 has hit 2 moa target at 875 yards using 175SMK with a 1:12 twiat pencil barrel with me at the controls.... i dont shoot all that good really.....FWIW the internet says this is impossible. .

For small groups i let my buddy do all of my testing.

The reciprocating CH is a pain. It is a self correcting problem. Watch out for the CH when bracing on a doorway.

Biggest issue i have is with the small handguard. If u r not careful your barrel always ends up on the barracade.

That and the SCAR's astronomical expense! Is the buttstock as flimsy as the say?

 

[Eddie Gunks]

That and the SCAR's astronomical expense! Is the buttstock as flimsy as the say?

Nope. I have not broke it....but i have not tried

 

[Podmonkey]

They have a Bren 805 at my LGS in Harrisburg, seems like a more svelte dirivitave of the SCAR to me.

 

[meketrefe]

I'm just wondering where, in a SHTF scenario, we have more than 100 yard shots in the Northeast?

Is BLM marching up my street? Or will Anti-Fa snipers be plinking at me like Enemies at the Gates?

Frankly my nice semi-auto shotgun shoots slugs quite accurately out to 100 yards and I have no legal qualms about it.

Nobody knows what SHTF really means. It can mean a huge number of things.
But one thing is clear... in any situation you might have conditions that are imposed by the environment and
others that are dictated and implemented by the people and objects involved, ideally superior tactics.
I would never underestimate the power and reach of the rifle but even more important, the power of the brain.
Intelligence is the ultimate weapon.
Shotguns, revolvers, bows and arrows,... they all have a role somewhere but lets get real.

Hollywood makes everything look so easy.

 

[freddy]

Unless you are wearing heavy ceramic plate, a .223 will punch through any vest a .308 can.

In the box of truth, they both punched through 3 level 3 rated pistol vests I believe. In a SHTF scenario, I doubt we will see people wearing more than pistol vests. Rifle vests with plate weigh in excess of 25 lbs.

Under 6 lbs per plate (10x13) will stop several 308's. Even with 6x8 side plates you're at about 16 lbs total including plate carrier itself.

 

[freddy]

Here is thething about the SCAR.......

Customer service sucks. But they never need servicing.....so it is a win.

My scar 16 has 20,000+ rounds on it. I can consistently hit 300 yard 3 gun targets at will.

My scar 17 has hit 2 moa target at 875 yards using 175SMK with a 1:12 twiat pencil barrel with me at the controls.... i dont shoot all that good really.....FWIW the internet says this is impossible. .

For small groups i let my buddy do all of my testing.

The reciprocating CH is a pain. It is a self correcting problem. Watch out for the CH when bracing on a doorway.

Biggest issue i have is with the small handguard. If u r not careful your barrel always ends up on the barracade.

Can the SCAR 17 be top loaded with a fixed mag?

 

[dsdmmat]

I'm just wondering where, in a SHTF scenario, we have more than 100 yard shots in the Northeast?

Is BLM marching up my street? Or will Anti-Fa snipers be plinking at me like Enemies at the Gates?

Frankly my nice semi-auto shotgun shoots slugs quite accurately out to 100 yards and I have no legal qualms about it.

At any SHTF distance you take the shot that hits unprotected body parts. Vests do not cover the pelvis. The pelvis is a larger area than the head so you imobilize the target with a pelvis shot first. Shoot its buddies that come to its aid then take them out one by one after all the vermin are down in pain.