New option for 'fixed mag' SAFE Act?

[FrankenCub]

I have three uppers in three different calibers. NONE of them can use polymer mags. It absolutely IS as bad as 'you' think. Most mags I have, you need some sort of tool to get the baseplate off even when the mag is empty and not attached to the gun.

The group of guys I shoot with, and countless others I've talked to, have zero problems with polymer mags. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the armed forces are now using P-Mags because they are more reliable than the standard issue mags. Many service members were having family send them P-Mags while were deployed because they had constant problems with what Uncle Sam wanted them to use. I would suspect there's a reason your uppers wont function with polymer mags. Your uppers needing to use metal mags isn't the standard, I would bet it's more rare than you're willing to see.

My point of defending fixed mags is due to ergonomics. Some of you bash the livin shit out of a rifle that can't swap mags because you guys think the other options are so much better. For many of us, me included, the AR platform is about ergonomics. It's extremely comfortable to shoot from virtually any position or angle. And it's mostly because of the pistol grip. I hate traditional rifle stocks, truly hate them. They aren't comfortable in the least to me. I busted my wrist up when I was a kid so that may have a lot to do with it. So instead of shooting guns that don't feel comfortable, I shoot handguns. Well, the AR makes it fun for me to shoot it. I have a shotgun that collects dust, I have a bolt gun that rarely gets shot, and a .22 semi that has also spent most of the time I've owned it collecting dust. At some point, all of those will get a pistol grip stock, even if I have to make it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

For hunting and range shooting there's absolutely nothing wrong with a fixed mag, even HD if you have a reliable gun.

I'll give you the range and hunting where if something happens, you have time to deal with it . But there's no way you can say it is okay for home defense.

You wouldn't fix a magazine on your Glock or Sig would you?

 

[Marine Cpl]

My point of defending fixed mags is due to ergonomics. Some of you bash the livin shit out of a rifle that can't swap mags because you guys think the other options are so much better.

Pmags dont come in all calibers.

No offense but you cannot say that fixed mag is in the same league as featureless when it comes down to function.

I get that you like the looks but it isn't the same function-wise. If for whatever hypothetical reason the guys over at Indian Point had to abide by our rifle laws, which way do you think they will go to defend that plant? It wouldn't be via fixed mag and loose rounds in their pocket thats for sure. They'd never be able to complete their qualification course with the rifle in that configuration.

No offense and you do what you need to do for your wrist. I respond for those new to this so that they can see the cons. In the other forum there was a guy getting his first rifle/ AR who never considered malfunctions. He ended up going with the Spur.

Again no offense. I'm just putting facts out there.

 

[FrankenCub]

I'll give you the range and hunting where if something happens, you have time to deal with it . But there's no way you can say it is okay for home defense.

You wouldn't fix a magazine on your Glock or Sig would you?

You left out a part

if you have a reliable gun

I trust my AR to operate. But like I said earlier, my HD gun is a P99 for stated reasons in that post.

 

[Marine Cpl]

A reliable gun can still malfunction. It is as good as it's ammo which can come with an occasional dud even from reputable manufacturers.

Then you have physical factors as well. Elements, shock impacts, ect.

 

[FrankenCub]

Pmags dont come in all calibers.

No offense but you cannot say that fixed mag is in the same league as featureless when it comes down to function.

I get that you like the looks but it isn't the same function-wise. If for whatever hypothetical reason the guys over at Indian Point had to abide by our rifle laws, which way do you think they will go to defend that plant? It wouldn't be via fixed mag and loose rounds in their pocket thats for sure. They'd never be able to complete their qualification course with the rifle in that configuration.

No offense and you do what you need to do for your wrist. I respond for those new to this so that they can see the cons. In the other forum there was a guy getting his first rifle/ AR who never considered malfunctions. He ended up going with the Spur.

Again no offense. I'm just putting facts out there.

No worries, you'll play hell trying to offend me lol.

Most of the people shooting ARs, the P-Mag covers their needs. And some other mags also disassemble easily and will also handle multiple calibers. Come on, even the 458 SOCOM uses 5.56 mags.
I never said fixed mag is in the same league as the other option, just stating it's a viable option that some look at as blasphemous. Defending a nuclear power plant is a whole other world from home defense, you're grasping at straws there. If people are going after a nuclear plant, they have some really nefarious intentions, no way in hell the guards there will ever have to use neutered anything. We're talking simple home defense. The likely hood of successfully defending yourself there is quite high.
You are still going on about "looks", even on the other site you hammered everyone about the "looks" Ergonomics have nothing to do with looks.

Just some help for ya from Merrium-Webster...

Definition of ergonomics

1. 1 : an applied science concerned with designing and arranging things people use so that the people and things interact most efficiently and safely —called also biotechnology, human engineering, human factors

Now that's where I'm going with it. I don't give a fuck what a gun looks like, it has to be comfortable to shoot. Well, I care just a bit, I won't be shooting a pink rifle lol

In the grand scheme of things, I think most people prefer a shotgun for HD anyway. You have the advantage of the distinct sound only a shotgun pump makes and will warn those breaking in what's in store for them. As well as basically the point and shoot of buckshot. Kinda hard to miss even in the dark and when blasted by a 12g you're not likely to get up. I'd be curious to know the true numbers of how many actually use an AR for HD. Maybe it's more than I think.

And really, why neuter an AR with another stock, buy a Mini-14. Same caliber, same function, standard rifle stock.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Simple home defense could just as easily end up with multiple 10 rd magazines expended so no. It is not a stretch or reaching.

Under that logic, you only need 7.

 

[FrankenCub]

Simple home defense could just as easily end up with multiple 10 rd magazines expended so no. It is not a stretch or reaching.

Under that logic, you only need 7.

lol...if that's the case, more importantly they should seriously be thinking about living in a better neighborhood. Or as I edited my last post, buy a Mini-14.
We could go on about this forever but the point remains, there are those who like the Thorsden stock, and those that despise it. I'm all for completely ignoring the unconstitutional law but I actually take my AR outside so it can see the sunlight, so I have to bend somewhere. The likelihood of me seeing an ENCON officer or a Trooper, very high. I refuse to own safe queens.

 

[Marine Cpl]

lol...if that's the case, more importantly they should seriously be thinking about living in a better neighborhood. Or as I edited my last post, buy a Mini-14.
We could go on about this forever but the point remains, there are those who like the Thorsden stock, and those that despise it. I'm all for completely ignoring the unconstitutional law but I actually take my AR outside so it can see the sunlight, so I have to bend somewhere. The likelihood of me seeing an ENCON officer or a Trooper, very high. I refuse to own safe queens.

So now it's the neighborhood? Why buy a gun at all for defense if it's all about the neighborhood? Just move to a good neighborhood.

And let's be honest here. Those that despise the Thordsen only do so for one reason. Looks.

 

[Jem45472]

You just need a mag release that requires an allen wrench to remove *or insert* a mag. Should be enough to keep even the most wary NYGunner feeling safe from SAFE, yet the mag can be dropped to clear a malfunction in less than a minute.

Alternately, if you find yourself in some situation where you feel its unsafe to clear without removing a magazine that isn't removable, you could unscrew the buffer tube and remove the bolt that way. PITA, but would provide a safe procedure for clearing that particular type of jam even if you have a truly permanently fixed mag.

If you expect to run into one often enough for the PITA nature of that solution to be an issue, you need to figure out whats wrong, rather than looking for an easier solution to clear it.

^^ This. If doing a fixed mag there is no issue if your mag lock can be taken off. There is nothing in the law that says the mag lock needs to be permanently fixed.

 

[FrankenCub]

So now it's the neighborhood? Why buy a gun at all for defense if it's all about the neighborhood? Just move to a good neighborhood.

And let's be honest here. Those that despise the Thordsen only do so for one reason. Looks.

If I felt that I needed that many rounds to defend against home invasion, you're damn right there's something wrong with the neighborhood.
Looks have NOTHING to do with why I despise the Thorsden, the grip angle SUCKS. My Winchester model 12, the grip angle SUCKS, my Savage bolt gun, the grip angle SUCKS, my Savage .22, the grip angle SUCKS, my Mauser K98, the grip angle SUCKED EVEN MORE. If we could have a thumb hole stock on an AR where the grip angle could be more vertical I'd be fine with it. If they made a Thordsen that had a more vertical grip angle, I'd be fine with it. But we know what that's about, must be the angle is what makes a gun more dangerous
But anyway, you're trolling now. I'll leave you to your bridge.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If I felt that I needed that many rounds to defend against home invasion, you're damn right there's something wrong with the neighborhood.
Looks have NOTHING to do with why I despise the Thorsden, the grip angle SUCKS. My Winchester model 12, the grip angle SUCKS, my Savage bolt gun, the grip angle SUCKS, my Savage .22, the grip angle SUCKS, my Mauser K98, the grip angle SUCKED EVEN MORE. If we could have a thumb hole stock on an AR where the grip angle could be more vertical I'd be fine with it. If they made a Thordsen that had a more vertical grip angle, I'd be fine with it. But we know what that's about, must be the angle is what makes a gun more dangerous
But anyway, you're trolling now. I'll leave you to your bridge.

Trolling? Lol. No offense taken. All good.

 

[MikeyCNY]

So now it's the neighborhood? Why buy a gun at all for defense if it's all about the neighborhood? Just move to a good neighborhood.

And let's be honest here. Those that despise the Thordsen only do so for one reason. Looks.

Not true, I've stated multiple times that I can't reach the safety with my thumb with the Thordsen. I could probably replaced the safety with an 'extended' one but haven't gotten around to that yet. I don't actually mind the look of the Thordsen. I also don't 'despise' it so I guess I wasn't targeted in your post.

I despise the unconstitutional law that changes the LOOK of something and doesn't actually make anything SAFER.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not true, I've stated multiple times that I can't reach the safety with my thumb with the Thordsen. I could probably replaced the safety with an 'extended' one but haven't gotten around to that yet. I don't actually mind the look of the Thordsen. I also don't 'despise' it so I guess I wasn't targeted in your post.

I despise the unconstitutional law that changes the LOOK of something and doesn't actually make anything SAFER.

An ambidextrous safety remedies that problem. We all despise the unconstitutional law.

 

[pjzwtl]

LoL, I only use it at night for preds, it's cold and dark and my fingers with arthritis don't always work so good in those conditions.

That's the biggest pain in the ass when doing multiple stands with a fixed mag. Open it up and load then open it up and unload back in the truck then open it up load and then open it back up and unload.. stand after stand. If your lucky you have 1 or two rounds less to pick out between stands. It makes more sense to just be able to drop the mag out for pred hunting to me anyway.

 

[dsdmmat]

And let's be honest here. Those that despise the Thordsen only do so for one reason. Looks.

Not quite true. I removed my Thordsen stock because the ergonomics sucked, I could give two shits about the look.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not quite true. I removed my Thordsen stock because the ergonomics sucked, I could give two shits about the look.

 

[dsdmmat]

What does your video have to do with the reason I removed my Thordson stock?



Absolutely nothing. Ergonomics are particular to the individual. One size does not fit all nor will one solution work for everyone.

 

[Duke]

Thordson stock doesn't say FUAC to me.....

 

[Ozmiander]

Sounds like i need to open a gun storage facility in SW Vermont, lol.

 

[MikeyCNY]

That looks like a vertical foregrip to me.

 

[dsdmmat]

That looks like a vertical foregrip to me.

It is the new shorty Thordson foregrip with pleasure ribs.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Thordson stock doesn't say FUAC to me.....

So do think fixed magazine says,"FUAC?" If so, how?

 

[Marine Cpl]

What does your video have to do with the reason I removed my Thordson stock?



Absolutely nothing. Ergonomics are particular to the individual. One size does not fit all nor will one solution work for everyone.

That guy has large hands. I have small hands. We both reach the controls. Is it more comfortable with a pistol grip. Of course. But not for a defensive weapon.

A range toy for long range precision shooting or a squirrel away in the safe gun for a rainy day is one thing. As a " Fight for your life!" gun, it is not.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Some here want a rifle for defensive purposes that don't have a pistol or shotgun and don't take these points into account and think that if they fix the magazine they will retain the same function.

 

[Duke]

So do think fixed magazine says,"FUAC?" If so, how?

How did you know it is fixed and a range toy...I have some firearms not defense weapons...Some people like the Thordson option and I have seen a lot of spurs too...

 

[ManrisFrack]

PMAGS made for .377" diameter cases (5.56/.223) don't reliably feed larger diameter cases and will bulge after more than a few rounds. Changing followers is better but still not 100%. The calibers I have use .421" and .471" diameter cases (6.8/30 Rem and 308 respectively). It isn't just me or my equipment - it's just a fact of life when using many of the intermediate cases in an AR15. If you know someone reliably feeding these case diameters from an AR15 PMAG, it's definitely an annomally.

As I recall, 458 SOCOM is even bigger than the two I mentioned and doesn't offset as much when stacked in a mag (thus reducing the pressure on the side walls of the mag). I don't know the numbers of NY'ers that use these 6.8 and 308 based calibers but there are at least half a dozen forum members that have said they use 6.8. I suspect that removing the endplate is not a viable option for a greater number of people than your finite experience leads you to believe.

I've got one lower with an MR2, essentially fixed in the event of a serious double feed. I use it because it's 100% reliable to date and the ergonomics are better. It's far from perfect but I'm definitely not opposed to fixed mag on principle. I wouldn't use it for an HD primary but to each his own.

 

[Marine Cpl]

How did you know it is fixed and a range toy...I have some firearms not defense weapons...Some people like the Thordson option and I have seen a lot of spurs too...

When did I say it was a range toy in response to your FUAC quote? It's either featureless or else it is fixed as far as a legal FUAC goes.

 

[dsdmmat]

That guy has large hands. I have small hands. We both reach the controls. Is it more comfortable with a pistol grip. Of course. But not for a defensive weapon.

A range toy for long range precision shooting or a squirrel away in the safe gun for a rainy day is one thing. As a " Fight for your life!" gun, it is not.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Some here want a rifle for defensive purposes that don't have a pistol or shotgun and don't take these points into account and think that if they fix the magazine they will retain the same function.

My thorsdon stock was removed because ergonomics alone. Your point missed the mark with the post you quoted. It doesn't really matter what point you were trying to make, an uncomfortable weapon never gets used. If the ergonomics suck for any reason the gun is as useless as tits on a bull. It doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks at that point. If a guy wants a fixed mag for defense what is it to you? I have a lever gun sitting next to the bed are you going to try and tell me that it is not a good defensive weapon because I have to cycle the action manually and have to load it one bullet at a time through the load gate? Or my revolver is only good for a range toy because it has 6 rounds and has to have the cyliner dumped to be loaded with a speed loader? If so then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[Marine Cpl]

My thorsdon stock was removed because ergonomics alone. Your point missed the mark with the post you quoted. It doesn't really matter what point you were trying to make, an uncomfortable weapon never gets used. If the ergonomics suck for any reason the gun is as useless as tits on a bull. It doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks at that point. If a guy wants a fixed mag for defense what is it to you? I have a lever gun sitting next to the bed are you going to try and tell me that it is not a good defensive weapon because I have to cycle the action manually and have to load it one bullet at a time through the load gate? Or my revolver is only good for a range toy because it has 6 rounds and has to have the cyliner dumped to be loaded with a speed loader? If so then I guess we have nothing more to discuss.

All those weapons you listed can be loaded, reloaded, and have the ability to have remedial action performed in a reasonable amount of time so I see no revelance to your analogy.

Useless as a stick? Come on now....

What's it to me? I like to speak the truth.

 

[dsdmmat]

I like to speak the truth.

The truth in your opinion.