Orange County Amendment Time

[masterswimmer]

I think she's on our side too. I wish she was a better manager of her office though.

It did come across very loud and clear that she didn't know a few things that go on under her leadership. She did say, 'I learned a few things here this evening'.

I appreciate her role in trying to improve the process, but I agree with you that she could easily tweak the SOP's in her office to help streamline the red tape.

 

[kev74]

So it sounds like it was a "pass the buck" session when it cane to the unacceptable time we wait for an amendment. I'm going to send Annie an email asking why our system can't work like other counties that hand out a voucher or that allow the pistol office to look at your paperwork, stamp it, and send you back to the store to pick up your pistol. Even Suffolk county people can get it done in a day. Our current system makes it impossible to purchase a pistol at a show and get a good deal too.

That was addressed and.. they're working on it. I won't be holding my breath though.

 

[masterswimmer]

So it sounds like it was a "pass the buck" session when it cane to the unacceptable time we wait for an amendment. I'm going to send Annie an email asking why our system can't work like other counties that hand out a voucher or that allow the pistol office to look at your paperwork, stamp it, and send you back to the store to pick up your pistol. Even Suffolk county people can get it done in a day. Our current system makes it impossible to purchase a pistol at a show and get a good deal too.

The coupon/amendment process was discussed at length. My post above briefly touches on the outcome of it. In short, last February she and the OC Sheriff's dept changed the process and issued about 200 coupons without sending the amendments to the issuing authority (the judges). One judge blasted her in the press saying what she did was illegal and threatened her with impeachment (could be wrong on the legal ramification regarding impeachment). She was on the cusp of having to defend herself in a court of law.

Like I said previously, maybe not done the proper way, but done with real good intentions for us.

 

[kev74]

I think I got an evil look when I suggested she publish the turnaround times from the judges.

 

[masterswimmer]

I think I got an evil look when I suggested she publish the turnaround times from the judges.

You noticed that too? Lol

 

[atc250r]

I'm definitely not bashing her, she has our best interests at heart and is a great lady. She's actually a neighbor of mine and I've met her quite a few times. Hopefully she can find a workaround for this. It sounds like you all let her know other counties do it differently and better.

 

[kev74]

You noticed that too? Lol

Someone's gotta rock the boat once in a while.

 

[masterswimmer]

..... It sounds like you all let her know other counties do it differently and better.

Nope, absolutely not. SHE was the one to repeatedly say how she was trying to make things easier like other County Clerks are succeeding at. Both Annie and the Undersheriff continually commented on the legality of the changes they tried to implement. The judges seem to be the monkeywrench in the works.

 

[kev74]

Nope, absolutely not. SHE was the one to repeatedly say how she was trying to make things easier like other County Clerks are succeeding at. Both Annie and the Undersheriff continually commented on the legality of the changes they tried to implement. The judges seem to be the monkeywrench in the works.

In my opinion, they implemented it poorly. They didn't get explicit ok's from all the judges before the new process was implemented. Because of that, it turned into a cluster-f. I'm guessing Kenny Jones made that call while Rabbitt was dealing with her husband's death.

Again, if she was a strong enough manager / administrator, she wouldn't have let the Sheriff's office have that kind of influence on the Clerk's office. That's one of the reasons they are two separate elected positions.

 

[masterswimmer]

In my opinion, they implemented it poorly. They didn't get explicit ok's from all the judges before the new process was implemented.

Yup, agree, as I posted previously.

I believe Annie Rabbit is in our corner. Did she go about trying to improve the amendment process the wrong way? Possibly, because the judge that went ballistic publicly, obviously took umbrage with her attempt to circumvent his authority. However, that being said, her intentions were good and definitely in support of the 2A crowd.

 

[atc250r]

It definitely sounds like it was implemented poorly. Hopefully they can sort it out. Maybe a letter or email to our respective issuing judges voicing our support for streamlining it would be a good idea?

 

[kev74]

I had something a little funny happen today. The deed for my house arrived today.

It got filed with the County Clerk's office, sent to my lawyer, then mailed to me.

The funny part... The paperwork was stamped as received by the Clerk's office at 1:46pm... On May 17... 2016. It only took a little more than 1 year and 4 months.

The delay in pistol permits getting processed might not be the judge's fault after all.

I'm going to call the lawyer's office on Monday and see if they misplaced something, or if this is typical for the Clerk's office.

 

[kev74]

I got my latest amendment back today - 14 days. Only twice as long as it used to take 7-8 years ago.

 

[OCShooters]

What KJ and AR did was totally illegal. In other counties, like Ulster, the Judge gave a stamp with their name on it to the county clerk. Under PL 400 that is illegal and in Ulster county when the Admin Judge found out he ended the practice. Not only that but KJ & AR took it a step further, they took a state form, altered and Photoshoped it, signed them and handed them out. Can you Photoshop your pistol license and not get arrested? It was the local Administrative Judge who called what KJ and AR did "of knowingly committing an illegal act." They did this after KJ said that he could arrest people for giving out NRA safety class certificates to students that had not shot a gun even though that is what the Judges had been accepting for decades. At least we did not alter Official NY State forms. It was Rabbit that gave the Ken Jones the ability to make up all of the rules and regulations that we never had in the past.
Blaming a Judge for what KJ and AR did is ridiculous. Cops see it all of the time, it is not the person who did something illegal that is at fault, it is the person that found out or called the police. "The criminal was not doing anything that bad, really, why are you picking on them,they had to commit an illegal act, everybody else does it." It wasn't the Judges that caused the problems, it was the FFLs who refused to accept illegally altered forms for fear of losing their FFL license and being arrested and not giving people their handguns. That is what caused the problems. The FFLs are not allowed to give you a handgun if two numbers of the serial number on the form are reversed. How can you expect them to ignore the fact that the coupons were signed by someone other than a Judge?
KJ started giving "safety classes" so that he could hire his girlfriend who failed her first NRA Instructors class and was only given an "Assistant Instructor" status and this is after KJ told everyone, including the Orange County Safety Committee, that to be an "instructor, including the Sheriff's Department" you had to be an NRA Instructor. The girlfriend retook the NRA Instructors class about 6 months after she was on the payroll. How is it not illegal for an Orange County employee, KJ, to create a job for his girlfriend who was not qualified according to the official job description and have her reporting directly to KJ.
KJ lied when he said the Orange County Federation backed his plan. The Federation never voted to support any of this and while he states that he has an ongoing relationship with the Federation to oversee his class and instructors and content no one at the Federation has had anything to do with it with the approval of the Federation.
KJ also support a 5 day waiting period. If they support the 2nd and they falsified the Amendment Coupons because it was taking so long then why didn't they do something about the people who were waiting up to 4 months to get fingerprinted at the same time? (It is now only a 6 week wait, great, I'm so happy.) Why with the almost the same Judges and now even one more Judge, 7 in total, issuing licenses and amendments to spread the work around, have we gone from 2 weeks for Amendment to 6 weeks or more? The THR article showed that the delay was not the Judges fault.

NY PL 400
9. License: amendment. Elsewhere than in the city of New York, a
person licensed to carry or possess a pistol or revolver may apply at
any time to his or her licensing officer for amendment of his or her
license ...​

What part of "to his or her licensing officer" didn't they understand? NY law has always required the Judges to see every amendment. If you look at case law the Judges powers are unlimited and they can and some do things like, (not in Orange County,) limit how many handguns you can own or require you to have a safe. KJ and AR knew that what they were doing was illegal and it is impossible for me to believe that the Sheriff's Department Investigator, who also signed the forms, did so without KJ approving and KJ directing him to sign the forms otherwise the Investigator could have lost his job or been arrested. The FFLs could have been arrested and lost their license if they had gone along with it.
As far as passing a "Home rule law" that would allow the others to issue licenses or Amendments besides Judges; If anyone thinks that the anti-gun, NY City and Democrat controlled Assembly would ever pass and anti-gun Gov. Cuomo would ever sign any bill that would make it easier or quicker to get a pistol license anywhere in NY State, I want some of what you are smoking, drinking or taking. They are the same people who just outlawed many handguns and other guns that we own or want to own. If a "home rule" law is so easy to get passed, why don't we just pass a "Shall Issue" law in Orange County and leave the opinion of the Judges, KJ and AR out of it?
KJ and AR were talking about the "home rule" three or more years ago and they have never done anything about it. I talked to several state people a while ago and they said that they had never been approached.

 

[OCShooters]

One more thing about the THR article and the writer. They did an excellent job with all three of the articles. This is really technical stuff and you have to know not only how it works but what is in the law and not in the law. (It is not how you think the law works, how you want the law to work or how the law should work, the law is what the law is.) The writer obviously took a lot of time and talked to a bunch of people including KJ and AR and as far as I can tell he got everything 100% correct. It was KJ's big mouth that caused Ulster, (and other counties,) to be forced to end an informal but still illegal practice. Not to repeat myself but someone who has committed a criminal act never likes to have their name or act talked about in the newspaper. 'Oh that reporter he's so mean and unfair. Even if it was illegal I did it for a good reason.' Sounds like a Democrat to me.

 

[DoD1776]

What are you guys talking about? With this amendment stuff, someone explain please, very curious and confused

 

[OCShooters]

What are you guys talking about? With this amendment stuff, someone explain please, very curious and confused

it has to do with the orange pistol licenses and amendments and how the system is being abused for the benefit for certain people. this is one of the articles in the Times Herald-Record.

KINGSTON — A recent flap over Orange County amending pistol permits without a judge’s approval has led to the cancellation of a policy in neighboring Ulster County that had sped up the process of amending a license to add a new handgun.

The Times Herald-Record reported in April that Orange County judges had been asked to review and reissue 236 permit amendments that were deemed invalid because no judge had signed them. The County Clerk’s Office and Sheriff’s Office had begun issuing amendments on their own to save time, but were stopped because state law dictates that only judges may issue or amend handgun permits in upstate counties.

Undersheriff Ken Jones had pointed out in defense of the practice that judges in Ulster and other counties had delegated authority for approving permit amendments to county agencies. But that revelation prompted a directive from the judge who oversees the 3rd Judicial District, reminding Ulster County’s judges that they must review and sign all amendments as the only designated “licensing officers” and that they can’t delegate that authority.

“All amendments, including the addition of weapons, must be reviewed by a licensing officer,” Thomas Breslin, the administrative judge, wrote in a May 4 memo.

Breslin’s memo stopped a longstanding arrangement for the Ulster County Sheriff’s Office to handle amendments for new firearms, a shortcut that enabled permit holders to claim a new firearm in one day rather than wait for the paperwork to make its way to the judges. Those requests must now all go before state Supreme Court Justice Christopher Cahill, the judge whose name the Sheriff’s Office had been stamping on the amendments.

 

[DoD1776]

thank you!

it has to do with the orange pistol licenses and amendments and how the system is being abused for the benefit for certain people. this is one of the articles in the Times Herald-Record.

KINGSTON — A recent flap over Orange County amending pistol permits without a judge’s approval has led to the cancellation of a policy in neighboring Ulster County that had sped up the process of amending a license to add a new handgun.

The Times Herald-Record reported in April that Orange County judges had been asked to review and reissue 236 permit amendments that were deemed invalid because no judge had signed them. The County Clerk’s Office and Sheriff’s Office had begun issuing amendments on their own to save time, but were stopped because state law dictates that only judges may issue or amend handgun permits in upstate counties.

Undersheriff Ken Jones had pointed out in defense of the practice that judges in Ulster and other counties had delegated authority for approving permit amendments to county agencies. But that revelation prompted a directive from the judge who oversees the 3rd Judicial District, reminding Ulster County’s judges that they must review and sign all amendments as the only designated “licensing officers” and that they can’t delegate that authority.

“All amendments, including the addition of weapons, must be reviewed by a licensing officer,” Thomas Breslin, the administrative judge, wrote in a May 4 memo.

Breslin’s memo stopped a longstanding arrangement for the Ulster County Sheriff’s Office to handle amendments for new firearms, a shortcut that enabled permit holders to claim a new firearm in one day rather than wait for the paperwork to make its way to the judges. Those requests must now all go before state Supreme Court Justice Christopher Cahill, the judge whose name the Sheriff’s Office had been stamping on the amendments.

 

[masterswimmer]

Wow, I'd like to know the truth about all this. Sure seems like the proverbial three sides to a story, yours, their's and somewhere in the middle, the truth.

 

[OCShooters]

Wow, I'd like to know the truth about all this. Sure seems like the proverbial three sides to a story, yours, their's and somewhere in the middle, the truth.

Not really any middle. What KJ and AR did was illegal, if it wasn't why did they quit doing it?

 

[OCShooters]

What are you guys talking about? With this amendment stuff, someone explain please, very curious and confused

Someone had a link to the original THR article. Orange County gun permits issued without proper approval

 

[OCShooters]

It was the local Administrative Judge who called what KJ and AR did "of knowingly committing an illegal act."

CORRECTION: This the quote from the THR article: "Alan Scheinkman, the administrative judge who oversees the five-county Ninth Judicial District, emailed Orange County’s judges on March 30 and told them to reissue those amendments, saying, “If we can correct this problem now, it may also mitigate what may be the responsibility of the County Clerk’s personnel or Sheriff’s personnel for knowing violation of law.”"

 

[OCShooters]

Because we are talking about amendments; this is a link to my Web-page that covers amendments. If you follow the instructions you should be able to download the amendment form and fill it in on your computer and save it for future use. (If you have any problems, please let me know and I will try to correct it.) This is the new NY State form that replaced the old form in March of 2017. The main change was the addition of both a physical and mailing address for those people who have their mail delivered to an address other than the physical address. http://www.ocshooters.com/Hand/plamendment.htm

Also as of this week, the Pistol License Department had accepted 1,734 pistol license applications so far this year from the Sheriff's Dept. after they have finished processing their part of the applications. This number represents the workload so far this year; how many applications were turned in to the Pistol License Dept. after being processed by the OCSD and how many new applications the Judges have and will have to process. It does not represent the number of permits issued. It is also impossible to know what the backlog is in the OCSD waiting to be processed. At least the wait to be fingerprinted is down to 6 weeks. If the numbers hold up, and I don't think that they will because things slow down this time of year, we will have over 2,300 new pistol applications processed to the pistol license department this year. It still looks like we will set another new record over last year's record of @ 2,034 for 2016. We are already ahead of the previous record in 2013 of 1,735. (I have the numbers going back to 1993 here if you are interested.)

• 2015 1,169
• 2014 1,601
• 2013 1,735
• 2012 1,346
• 2011 993
• 2010 1,170
• 2009 1,000
• 2008 700
• 2007 508

I also have a list of all of the Judges and what towns they issue permits for but I want to wait a few more days to verify the information and rearrange it.

• 
  

 

[kev74]

Ok.... so lets do some math.

About 200 working days since the beginning of the year. 1,734/200=8.67

So.... with all their bloviating and pronounced support of the Second Amendment and claims of streamlining and speeding up the process, they could only manage to fingerprint an average of less than 9 applicants a day. Even with a second fingerprint machine. Woo-hoo! I don't know how they find the time to sit around and dick off all day, which is all anyone in that office is doing any time I've been there.

Now we know that the Sheriff is full of shit and, along with the Clerk, are responsible for all of the delays we have to endure in order to exercise our rights. I don't know how we would be worse off with Dems in those positions.

Here's a fun thought.... all of the gun stores / FFL's in the county file a class-action suit and sue the County for what ever it cost them for the last 8 or 10 years when they had to hold inventory for a year and a half with only a 20% deposit while their customers were waiting for a permit to get processed. Between the financing charges they had to pay and the opportunity cost of keeping their inventory and capital tied up, I bet damages would be substantial.

 

[OCShooters]

Ok.... so lets do some math.

About 200 working days since the beginning of the year. 1,734/200=8.67

So.... with all their bloviating and pronounced support of the Second Amendment and claims of streamlining and speeding up the process, they could only manage to fingerprint an average of less than 9 applicants a day. Even with a second fingerprint machine. Woo-hoo! I don't know how they find the time to sit around and dick off all day, which is all anyone in that office is doing any time I've been there.

The reason for the backlog for fingerprinting is because NY law imposes a 6 month limit on how long it takes to issue a license. (No penalty if it takes longer.) OCSD can’t process all of the applications so they limit the number of people who are fingerprinted.

 

[kev74]

The reason for the backlog for fingerprinting is because NY law imposes a 6 month limit on how long it takes to issue a license. (No penalty if it takes longer.) OCSD can’t process all of the applications so they limit the number of people who are fingerprinted.

While blowing smoke up our backsides and telling us how they're trying to streamline the system, they're artificially dragging out the process.

If they were on our side, they wouldn't be enabling the system by artificially limiting how many applications hit the judges desks. They would take the applications in at a walk-up window, do on the spot fingerprints and foward the file to the judges with a clear conscience.

 

[OCShooters]

While blowing smoke up our backsides and telling us how they're trying to streamline the system, they're artificially dragging out the process..

They do have to do the investigation but you’re right, they take a ridiculous amount of time, around two months as far as I can tell. They go back to peoples houses and leave a card supposedly to make sure they live there. They can’t check people’s drivers license, voter registration, On line real property information,and other information and find out somebody’s been living there for 5-10-20 or more years? The sheriffs department looks for reasons to suggest a denial for people’s license.

 

[NYGuns]

Will be 4 weeks tomorrow waiting for me. You know it's getting bad when my friends in Westchester are getting their permits faster than us in Orange.

 

[Eddie73]

Been almost 3 weeks for me. I don’t have the money to pick it up anyway. My friends last 2 have taken about 2 weeks. Thanksgiving probably slowed things down a bit.

 

[kev74]

I put a new one in today. Lets see what happens.