Ruger Carbine Takedown !

[meketrefe]

Owner's manual shows internals:
https://ruger-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/_manuals/PC-Carbine.pdf

From a thread on Arfcom:

Just had a look @ the schematic in the back of the manual posted above. It's garden variety mass-delayed blowback (straight blowback) w/ a tungsten sliding weight just like a normal AR-9. Won't be as quiet as a DI, piston, HK, or the new CMMG radial-delayed blowback AR-9/45. But coming in below the price of an AR-9, these will sell like hotcakes. If it runs, Ruger hit a home run here.


Can't link the manual, can get there from a link on page 3 from this thread:
Ruger is ruining my 2018 resolution of no more new guns - 9mm Ruger Takedown that takes glock mags - Page 3 - AR15.COM

Edit..linked to owner's manual from Ruger's site.

Thanks for the schematics. I see there is nothing too special but they say it is smooth. We will see.
What I like is the fact that you can easily swap bolt heads and extractors so you know what that means right?...
they designed this so they are ready to easily swap bolt heads and extractors for other calibers like 40cal bolt face and
even 45. The ejector plunger is in the magazine adapter and I can see them releasing other standards like S&W, 1911.
This allows for quick and easy swap w/o major expenses not even the bolt carrier is needed.
This is very good. Very smart move from ruger. This kind of flexibility is not possible even with the super modular AR.

 

[Podmonkey]

Podmonkey,
There is nothing mild about the 9mm specially for an autoloader rated for +P and +P+ ammunition.
Same thing to use other popular calibers like 40 caliber, 357sig, 10mm etc...

After all the most popular and reliable firearms on the planet have a delayed blow back like MP5 or Glock for example.

PCCS can be seen as a civilian outgrowth of submachine guns. Of which the overwhelming majority are simple blowback designs, from the classic Thompson, to the expedient Sten and it's refined successor the Sterling, to the simple and stalwart MP40. The list goes on and on and on. Some would say the Australian Owen submachine gun was the best of them all, it was a blowback design. The obscure but excellent Walther MP submachinegun was a simple blowback design. The legendary UZI is a blowback design. The famed Finnish Suomi and it's storied Russian decendants the PPS and PPSH are all straight blowback designs. A long gun offers ample room and ergonomic support for the heavy bolt of blowback actions. The type is simple, inexpensive, and accurate. Compared to rifle cartridges even the stoutest pistol calibers, exceptING the super magnums, are easily contained by this action.
Man I could just go on forever here, I keep editing in more models. Suffice to say that 99% of submachine guns and PCCs are straight blowback designs, the action is ideally suited for the role.

 

[meketrefe]

The idea of the delayed blow back is that you don't need such mass and strong spring to operate the gun so these are lighter firearms, that
are smoother to operate and more reliable with any sort of ammo.
The PPS and Suomi they are a cool piece of history but they cannot even begin to compare with delayed systems we have today like a Glock or MP9 that anyone can use.
The Kelteck sub 2000 is a good example of a massive bolt and blow back. Many people with weak hands will not be able to
operate the Sub 2000 just because of the amount of force that takes to charge the bolt. specially old people and average or petite woman.
If any of those old systems was better, the design would have survived but they didn't with the exception of the delayed roller system
that is what you have in the MP9. Today you see folks with glocks all over or other versions of it, copies or not.
Those old tubes and massive bolts made sense at the time. Still one can easily make a gun based on the same concept but will not be
as refined, smooth and reliable as a well though out delayed blow back.
Even savage just released their own delayed system so they could overcome the reliability issues of the HMR cartrige making it super smooth
and 100% reliable.

 

[Podmonkey]

The idea of the delayed blow back is that you don't need such mass and strong spring to operate the gun so these are lighter firearms, that
are smoother to operate and more reliable with any sort of ammo.
The PPS and Suomi they are a cool piece of history but they cannot even begin to compare with delayed systems we have today like a Glock or MP9 that anyone can use.
The Kelteck sub 2000 is a good example of a massive bolt and blow back. Many people with weak hands will not be able to
operate the Sub 2000 just because of the amount of force that takes to charge the bolt. specially old people and average or petite woman.
If any of those old systems was better, the design would have survived but they didn't with the exception of the delayed roller system
that is what you have in the MP9. Today you see folks with glocks all over or other versions of it, copies or not.
Those old tubes and massive bolts made sense at the time. Still one can easily make a gun based on the same concept but will not be
as refined, smooth and reliable as a well though out delayed blow back.
Even savage just released their own delayed system so they could overcome the reliability issues of the HMR cartrige making it super smooth
and 100% reliable.

You can't bring Glock into this. Handguns have unique requirements over long guns. The major calibers require a cumbersome amount of mass to work properly with, the ugly and bulky HiPoint pistols as a example. The HiPoint does function perfectly well however. Now lets look at the Sub 2000 and CX4. Both have the heavy bolts necessitated by their blowback actions yet are quite lightweight. As far as spring pressure goes H&K's roller delayed action is notoriously punishing in this regard, while not as pronounced in the MP5 the bolt still takes a healthy yank to open. Roller delayed actions have their own issues too, the same sensitivity to altering the mass of the arm that all recoil operated types have and issues with head space getting out of spec with use. Indeed, H&K gas abandoned roller delayed sytems in favor of gas operation.
Looking at pistol actions the far and away most common system is the Browning tilting barrel action. Its obvious why tgis action is not suitable with barrel lengths of 16". That leaves rotating barrels or the Beretta style falling wedge. Either of these would be suitable but I ask why would we add the expense of these and forgo the inherent accuracy potential of a fixed barrel when we have the size and stability of three points of contact that tge long gun offers to offset the weight of the heavy bolt. The preponderance of the straight blowback action in PCCs would seem to support my postition.

 

[meketrefe]

You can't bring Glock into this. Handguns have unique requirements over long guns. The major calibers require a cumbersome amount of mass to work properly with, the ugly and bulky HiPoint pistols as a example. The HiPoint does function perfectly well however. Now lets look at the Sub 2000 and CX4. Both have the heavy bolts necessitated by their blowback actions yet are quite lightweight. As far as spring pressure goes H&K's roller delayed action is notoriously punishing in this regard, while not as pronounced in the MP5 the bolt still takes a healthy yank to open. Roller delayed actions have their own issues too, the same sensitivity to altering the mass of the arm that all recoil operated types have and issues with head space getting out of spec with use. Indeed, H&K gas abandoned roller delayed sytems in favor of gas operation.
Looking at pistol actions the far and away most common system is the Browning tilting barrel action. Its obvious why tgis action is not suitable with barrel lengths of 16". That leaves rotating barrels or the Beretta style falling wedge. Either of these would be suitable but I ask why would we add the expense of these and forgo the inherent accuracy potential of a fixed barrel when we have the size and stability of three points of contact that tge long gun offers to offset the weight of the heavy bolt. The preponderance of the straight blowback action in PCCs would seem to support my postition.

Why not bring the Glock? It is an excellent reliable delayed system as well as the MP5 that works with any pistol caliber and any barrel size in both
pistol and pdw platform (very popular in Israel and middle east). Bottom line, the most popular systems have a well made proven delay system that is why they run smoother and lighter. Yes the glock is mostly pistol but also widely used in PDW /chasis configuration with the typical 9"-11" barrel.
The MP5 is the most popular 9mm pdw /carbine on the planet when it comes to rigorous duty and why Swat teams, special police including, socom, fbi, US secret service lean on this type of design. Easy to operate guns, smooth and utterly reliable.

WE know there are other nice guns but there is a reason things like high points, keltecs, suomis,etc... and what not should not even be mentioned
in the same post. They are ok for enthusiasts, light duty and WWII enhancements but in terms of modern use, modern materials and magazines, modern ammo and for any sort of critical duty we should not even mention them. I don't trust a sub 2000 even for home defense. for backpack plinkin they are fine I guess, temperamental is a mild way to describe the many flaws of this design.

This is the reality of things. There are huge advantages to well executed delayed blow backs and perhaps why they are more expensive although
a glock for example is not more expensive than many other firearms. A good example that to introduce a delay system doesn't require any additional
parts only creativity, good engineering and precise machining.

We can exchange opinions about different designs and potential advantages but they are not going to change the reality and benefits of well made delayed systems.

 

[Podmonkey]

Why not bring the Glock? It is an excellent reliable delayed system as well as the MP5 that works with any pistol caliber and any barrel size in both
pistol and pdw platform (very popular in Israel and middle east). Bottom line, the most popular systems have a well made proven delay system that is why they run smoother and lighter. Yes the glock is mostly pistol but also widely used in PDW /chasis configuration with the typical 9"-11" barrel.
The MP5 is the most popular 9mm pdw /carbine on the planet when it comes to rigorous duty and why Swat teams, special police including, socom, fbi, US secret service lean on this type of design. Easy to operate guns, smooth and utterly reliable.

WE know there are other nice guns but there is a reason things like high points, keltecs, suomis,etc... and what not should not even be mentioned
in the same post. They are ok for enthusiasts, light duty and WWII enhancements but in terms of modern use, modern materials and magazines, modern ammo and for any sort of critical duty we should not even mention them. I don't trust a sub 2000 even for home defense. for backpack plinkin they are fine I guess, temperamental is a mild way to describe the many flaws of this design.

This is the reality of things. There are huge advantages to well executed delayed blow backs and perhaps why they are more expensive although
a glock for example is not more expensive than many other firearms. A good example that to introduce a delay system doesn't require any additional
parts only creativity, good engineering and precise machining.

We can exchange opinions about different designs and potential advantages but they are not going to change the reality and benefits of well made delayed systems.

Can you not see that a tilting 16" barrel will not work? Or work well at least. The Glock Mech Tech conversions are also straight blowback.

 

[meketrefe]

Can you not see that a tilting 16" barrel will not work? Or work well at least. The Glock Mech Tech conversions are also straight blowback.

The glock is not really meant for a 16" and nobody really wants a 16" bore anyway and not just for the glock but most carbines/pdws that are shorter.
In case of the glock there are barrels from 6" to 16" barrel conversion that work just fine. The many chasis are popular in other countries specially with the shorter barrels but they will work with a chasis like the roni and different spring.
In any case this is not a discussion about barrel lengths.
I mentioned the glock is to show that delayed block back design is part of leading platforms in the world. I think for an all purpose carbine to make them lighter and easier to operate and reliable with all sort of ammo people might be buying, a well made delayed sysytem is a good idea and why you
see them not only in the most popular critical duty guns but also in new guns like the new HMR from savage and CMMG just released one for the glock mags
that runs like butter.
Very smart move from Ruger and also very simple.

 

[meketrefe]

Can you not see that a tilting 16" barrel will not work?

16" on a glock like any other 9mm pdw is a stupid thing but anyway....

 

[NYGuns]

Got mine on order

 

[nortatoga]

Got mine on order

What kind of price be you get? So far one LGS told me about $525.00, should be picking up a new pistol this week at another shop will see what price they quote!

 

[NYGuns]

What kind of price be you get? So far one LGS told me about $525.00, should be picking up a new pistol this week at another shop will see what price they quote!

That's about in the range I was told.

 

[@thewheels]

I'm really struggling to hold off on this in 9mm.
If they had a .357 Sig version available, I'd already have my order in. Still hoping for at least a .40..........

 

[nortatoga]

I'm really struggling to hold off on this in 9mm.
If they had a .357 Sig version available, I'd already have my order in. Still hoping for at least a .40..........

Did you read @meketrefe post #121? I could be wrong but I took to mean the this carbine might be able to be convertible ?

 

[@thewheels]

Did you read @meketrefe post #121? I could be wrong but I took to mean the this carbine might be able to be convertible ?

Yeah, It should be but will Ruger just sell an affordable kit to make the switch to .40?

 

[timboy]

What kind of price be you get? So far one LGS told me about $525.00, should be picking up a new pistol this week at another shop will see what price they quote!

Please update when you do,I am very curious to know what these will be selling for around here.

 

[meketrefe]

Did you read @meketrefe post #121? I could be wrong but I took to mean the this carbine might be able to be convertible ?

I think if you wait there is a huge chance you will have the 40 and other calibers in either full package and/or kits.
I am speculating but why they would make a separate part for quickly pulling out the bolt head and extractor unless they plan other diameters?
This smells like they want to make manufacturing easier in the long term vs short term. And the ejector plunger is part of the magazine adapter so other adapters are expected for other mags systems and calibers.
Very smart move imo.

 

[Loworange88]

I want one. I'm hoping they make one in .45 I'd still settle for 9mm.

 

[Wildman1024]

Please update when you do,I am very curious to know what these will be selling for around here.

YEA!!! Who, What, Where, When...You know...All the details!!!!!

 

[MikeyCNY]

I'll probably get one, but not right away. I'll wait for the price to go down, and the kinks to be worked out.

Plus it seems every time I buy a gun, a few months later the "better" version comes out... (just like electronics...)

 

[meketrefe]

I'll probably get one, but not right away. I'll wait for the price to go down, and the kinks to be worked out.

Plus it seems every time I buy a gun, a few months later the "better" version comes out... (just like electronics...)

We don't know yet but chances are this gun is going to be very good off the gate. Much better than the Ruger PRS and american totally bug free.
Why? Well all the components they are using are proven technology but the mag adapter.
Also the bolt head is an amazing feature that contributes to the flexibility but the take down, carrier and the trigger group come from the PC9
and 10/22.
So chances are, they are going to start shooting and never stoop.

I might be wrong but this seems like a very smart move to me.

Ruger is trying and they are going to succeed because at least they are trying and they are coming out with prices the working man can afford.

Others in the same "category" are trailing.

Savage is another innovating company and now all the others are copying savage too but they are not there yet.

 

[Podmonkey]

I'll probably get one, but not right away. I'll wait for the price to go down, and the kinks to be worked out.

Plus it seems every time I buy a gun, a few months later the "better" version comes out... (just like electronics...)

I don't think you'll see these things for less than $500. That's already quite inexpensive. Nor do I think there will be much improvement of this model which is already based on a mature design. I think at most you will see caliber conversion packages, aftermarket stock equipped models, and I have no doubt an integrally suppressed version will eventually make an appearance. I'm also pretty sure Ruger will expand magazine compatibility. But beyond these I don't think there is much else that can be done with this. Perhaps Ruger will do some uber tacticool version slathered with pic rails?
I am quite sure I will be getting one of these soon. In fact I think it will be my next gun purchase, after I get a nice scope and mount for my AR.

 

[meketrefe]

I don't think you'll see these things for less than $500. That's already quite inexpensive. Nor do I think there will be much improvement of this model which is already based on a mature design. I think at most you will see caliber conversion packages, aftermarket stock equipped models, and I have no doubt an integrally suppressed version will eventually make an appearance. I'm also pretty sure Ruger will expand magazine compatibility. But beyond these I don't think the is much else that can be done with this. Perhaps Ruger will do some uber tacticool version slathered with pic rails?
I am quite sure I will be getting one of these soon. In fact I think it will be my next gun purchase, after I get a nice scope and mount for my AR.

I agree. If people are paying what the pay for a sub 2000 piece of garbage they will be happy to pay $500 to 600 for a real firearm.

 

[Podmonkey]

I agree. If people are paying what the pay for a sub 2000 piece of garbage they will be happy to pay $500 to 600 for a real firearm.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Sub 2000 is garbage so much as it is flawed. I do agree that the Ruger PCC will prove to be superior in most respects and the take down feature accomplishes most of what the Sub 2000's folding mechanism does, just perhaps not as quickly. I see this gun taking a lot of the market away from other PCC models too, I imagine it's of equivalent quality to the Berreta CX4 at a $200 discount though the CX4 will still compete on its 1lb lower weight and overall tidier dimensions. The CZ Scorpion almost seems superfluous in the face of the Ruger now, I just don't see what the CZ offers over the Ruger and it's more than $300 more expensive. The SIG MPX is well more than twice as expensive but as the top market offering, with its Gucci appeal and soft shooting gas operated action, I don't think it will be much affected. The Ruger will take a big ol bite out of the Just Right Carbines too, they are nice and seem to be very well built but are heavy and bulky in comparison, pretty plain featured too. The various AR PCCs will always have the "everything must be an AR" crowd behind it. I even bet the Ruger is cheap enough to woo away some of the price leader HiPoint sales. I'm not gonna consider the myriad B&T offerings, those things are so niche and often quite to ludicrously expensive, same goes for the Kriss carbines. I suppose there are the various MP5 clones to consider but the good ones are expensive and the cheap ones are not so great and they don't offer anything special in the way of features beyond historical appeal. I always thought it was a mistake for Ruger to withdraw the PC9 and by resurrecting it as a takedown model, which has proved extremely popular in the 10/22, they have really struck at the heart of the market.

 

[meketrefe]

After 3 sub 2000 and 4 visits to the factory for repairs we decided they are garbage.
They are ok for occasional very mild use and even for that they are not 100% reliable nor quality consistent.
They are cool but just another mistake like many I did in my life.

 

[Podmonkey]

After 3 sub 2000 and 4 visits to the factory for repairs we decided they are garbage.
They are ok for occasional very mild use and even for that they are not 100% reliable nor quality consistent.
They are cool but just another mistake like many I did in my life.

No they are not consistent. I run across them pretty regularly on the range. Some swear by them, some swear at them. Seems like if you get one that runs, it stays reliable, otherwise its a lemon. Its a shame, I find them very interesting.
Lack of a last shot bolt hold open sticks in my craw though. Such is a big selling point for me with the Ruger.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I had two Sub 2000's and they were both complete garbage. Rarely got through a mag without a malfunction. I will buy one of these as soon as I can find one.

 

[Podmonkey]

On a related note if The Ruger PC Carbine succeeds, and I think it will, I wonder if the company would consider a re-release of the Deer Stalker model? Perhaps an updated version utilizing the signature rotary magazine? I think there is an enthusiastic niche market out there for a semi automatic carbine in magnum revolver cartridges. Would be a great brush gun, or a good bear defense gun.

 

[meketrefe]

2 buldged the barrel not even +P ammo. 2 opened up the trigger lock so they would open no matter how hard you adjusted the lock. The charging handle was like 200lbs? ...but not as much as the trigger!

Call them lemons if you want. They might have a good bunch of lemon trees down there in FL.

 

[Podmonkey]

2 buldged the barrel not even +P ammo. 2 opened up the trigger lock so they would open no matter how hard you adjusted the lock. The charging handle was like 200lbs? ...but not as much as the trigger!

Call them lemons if you want. They might have a good bunch of lemon trees down there in FL.

That's a shame. I had the opportunity to run a full happy stick through a Gen 2 Sub 2000 a while back. It had no issues getting though the magazine and I was impressed with the sight picture and the accuracy. I wasn't all that impressed with the trigger but it didn't hold me back from making decent groups. I didn't find the charging handle particularly difficult to work with though it was awkwardly placed. I actually liked it. If it weren't for stories like yours I'd have bought one by now.

 

[meketrefe]

That's a shame. I had the opportunity to run a full happy stick through a Gen 2 Sub 2000 a while back. It had no issues getting though the magazine and I was impressed with the sight picture and the accuracy. I wasn't all that impressed with the trigger but it didn't hold me back from making decent groups. I didn't find the charging handle particularly difficult to work with though it was awkwardly placed. I actually liked it. If it weren't for stories like yours I'd have bought one by now.

well I could charge it but my wife could not and so many other people.
the people said... oh ... let it break in... it is new! ... might be a lemon?
Guess what? they are cool but they have several design flaws, huge ones.
You don't get to see them until you use it get serious and take it apart.
At this point, most likely you already own it.

Pretty cool. you have to hand it to them for trying but again... I don't like to be
the testing subject.
Again not big deal...we kind of knew this was not going to be the next UZI.

At the other hand the su16 is chugging along pretty nicely. Trigger also sucks
and it should be limited to that type of duty (not heavy or critical duty) but
it actually is pretty reliable due to the long stroke piston. The piston tube though
could be a bit stronger.
I think is the only keltek gun that somehow passed some minimum quality
criteria on my book.
su16 would make a great backpacker 5.56 imo, so light!

I don't know about this ruger but it seems like it is in the next league vs. the
average keltek, chiappas, hi-low points, etc...