Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No way.
Underwood Ammo
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
- Start date
freddy
.308 Win
And on what basis do you say this? He was standing for no more than 5 or 6 seconds. Even if the cops actually hit center mass on the very first shot a man could keep walking, heart uncorked, for 5 seconds. Perhaps especially so under the influence of PCP.
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Yes of course I know that. I also know that standard is what the Law will go by in a court room setting. My father and sister are attorney's. Its a no brainer
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
None other than the average person even if hopped up on something isn't going to not even flinch if a bullet pops their heart.
All I ask is for anyone who's blindly defending hollow points to research bullet wounds from actual shootings before they blindly defend something a cop says or recommends.
Were there issues of underpenetration before hollow points were invented? Did the .45 ACP FMJ with no energy dump and complete pass-through of a human body fail men in Vietnam? How about the .38 Special that served police for decades?
Problems with calibers only came to effect with hollow points.
freddy
.308 Win
Is this a triple negative?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Not true. That's a myth. No one has ever been convicted for using FMJ's or any solid bullet for that matter. On the contrary, the myth is that you'll get convicted for using deadly hollow points ammunition.
freddy
.308 Win
Again, correlation does not equal causation.
My grandpa smoked two packs a day for 90 years and lived to 105. Therefore cigarettes are not only safe, they make you live longer.
I don't think anyone is blindly defending hollow points. I am in the medical field and have done countless hours of testing. It is true that it is not the same as human tissue which I have witnessed first hand. There will be no defense for over penetration from a FMJ that you will use in case there is an accidental collateral injury. Good luck with that. There won't be one expert you can call that would defend your stance. Do what you want....
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
In all the history of self defense shootings, how many average citizens have been charged with some type of collateral damage charge from overpenetration? If you miss, you overpenetrated.
It's a non issue. You are supposed to know your target and beyond. Misses with hollow points are overpenetrators.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Really? So if they reissue .45 ACP's in FMJ to the military and .38 Specials in semiwadcutters to the police we will all of a sudden have major problems not regarding capacity but rather bullet performance?
freddy
.308 Win
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Ok.
Thats not what I am talking about. I am talking about over penetration and hitting an innocent bystander. You will lose in civil court
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Let me ask you this. Would you take a shot with someone behind the target with a hollow point?
I'm sure the answer is no because a miss is an overpenetrator.
I do know that none of your argument is valid when it comes to defending yourself in a civil suit. You can do 100 different scenario's and knowingly using FMJ that will over penetrate is not a good philosophy. That's a fact jack...but again do as you want.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You are skirting the question. Would you fire with a HP not knowing what's beyond your target? Are you certain you cannot miss with that hollow point?
I am not skirting the question. I have already been involved in a situation. Many shots fired myself and two officers. All with hollow points....many shots missed...they most always do. You hope and pray that the final resting place is inert objects and no worries of over penetration with injuries or fatalities behind doors, walls windows etc...You sir are the one missing the point...as usual. And of course if my life depended on it or my families life depended on it I would shoot
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. I believe you just proved my point. Thank you. A missed hollow point penetrates the same amount as a FMJ when hitting barriers. They only open up in soft media.
Not true...where do you come up with this garbage you spew out of your mouth???? Your full of it. Hydraulic pressure is the typical media to cause a hollow point to open up but not the only media....you are starting to sound ignorant and I recommend you don't provide any advice like this especially on an open forum....So wrong on so many levels
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Should I post videos for you showing hollow points penetrating the same as FMJ'S through walls and cars? There is no need for insults. This place is to learn rather than trying to win.
Here you go. Fast forward to 2 minutes and 15 seconds and learn something. The Federal HST 124 gr hollow point penetrated the exact same as compared to a 115 gr FMJ and a 115 gr+P+ solid copper bullet from Underwood. If you need more videos showing the same thing on glass and walls, let me know .
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
WTF are you talking about? Are you telling me it's now safe to take shots at people taking cover behind a body with hollow points because a body will stop them?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You alluded that you were a cop. It's clear that you know nothing about ballistics. It's guys like you that get promoted and make decisions on what ammo their subordinates need to carry.
You don't listen to anything other than your own nonsense. What I am saying again is that YOU CANT ALWAYS DETERMINE OR ADJUST TO WHATS BEHIND A PERP WHEN A SHOOTING TAKES PLACE. Do what you want you are clearly clueless and you have never been in a situation or shooting. I never said I was a cop. I do however train and train with them.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So what you are saying is that all your shots will hit the perp square in the chest stopping there and none will miss. Okay. I got it. I learned something new today. I'll be sure to let the countless other shooters know in years past before hollow points were invented of this knowledge.
Can you not read?????????? NO ONE SAID that all your shots will hit...Matter of fact I said in the shootout that we missed MANY times.....The majority of shots miss. So many people say I will have situational awareness of what is behind the perp prior to a shootout so I am not worried about over penetration....That isn't how it happens. the video above shows that as well. Now during some situations there is time to establish a safe back drop. Such as a hostage situation. Like I have said all along feel free to do as you please but don't suggest to others that FMJ doesn't come without civil ramifications. Almost all shootings will have a civil ramification and there is no defense for your use of FMJ. That is what I have been saying all along...
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You posted no such video. I have also posted that misses are overpenetrators and they happen OFTEN for FMJ'S to be a non issue.
It's an overblown issue that keeps getting repeated over and over that was never a problem in years past.
It's an overblown issue that keeps getting repeated over and over that was never a problem in years past.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Ok? Your point?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
After reading one of your posts, I didn't realize you were referring to the video I posted. I thought you were talking about a video you posted.
With that said, let's talk about the video. 45 out of 69 shots or so hit that dude in the chest. He didn't go down until he got shot in the leg.
All those shots in the chest underpenetrated. The 25 or so misses went into the direction of the people fleeing behind him. Those were all overpenetrators since they missed him.
Had they used rounds that penetrated to his vitals, it would not have taken a leg shot to put him down. There would then be less rounds going down range in the direction of those people.
Reread what you have posted and my responses from the beginning. You will see that you contradict yourself, say you didn't say something when you did, and refuse to acknowledge when you are wrong about something even after being presented with video evidence.
With that said, let's talk about the video. 45 out of 69 shots or so hit that dude in the chest. He didn't go down until he got shot in the leg.
All those shots in the chest underpenetrated. The 25 or so misses went into the direction of the people fleeing behind him. Those were all overpenetrators since they missed him.
Had they used rounds that penetrated to his vitals, it would not have taken a leg shot to put him down. There would then be less rounds going down range in the direction of those people.
Reread what you have posted and my responses from the beginning. You will see that you contradict yourself, say you didn't say something when you did, and refuse to acknowledge when you are wrong about something even after being presented with video evidence.