Incompetent Buffalo PD Boss Forces Underpowered Carbines On Officers

[Robin]

Beg to differ with you GOP, the politicians should always be involved. We just need to elect politicians that are there to serve in the best traditions of America, not leach from the system.
Robin

 

[speedkills27]

These same officers are responding already without these new and 'improved' tools of the trade.

There are some AR's in the department, not enough for all on the road. This is yet one more reason why politicians and non LE officials should not be involved in these decisions.

If you were a leader in the department wouldn't you be worried about the false sense of security the officers may feel with these weapons?

 

[Podmonkey]

The board was in no way going to approve any type of AR platform. Period.

Many true experts spoke at the hearings leading up to this decision, the board was adamant in their wanting a non rifle round rifle.

If they did not agree with these super Glock rifles, the department would have received nothing at all.

The board is misinformed and ignorant and as a result selected an inferior arm that offers no adavntages over a 5.56 AR.

 

[Mr. terzmo]

most houses in Buffalo are frame type....which enters the possibility of one round going through more than one building with a 223 or better
How many times during the day/month/year are they involved in an active shooter condition that warrants a high power rifle? I understand the position..."just once is enough" but doesn't that also apply to a homeowner,law abiding citizen who encounters the same situation but is limited on firepower/capacity by the crap act.

I support law enforcement but something to ponder is what they have vs US. They have swat teams,negotiating teams,snipers,traffic control,high capacity magazines,armored cars,portable command centers,tear gas,body armor. They also respond in numbers and mostly arrive after the fact,in time to do paperwork,tape off the scene,etc. What do we have....a fruit of the loom t-shirt that hasn't stopped anything to date.

 

[ECU Pirates]

At least they have rifles now.

Not really.

 

[Podmonkey]

most houses in Buffalo are frame type....which enters the possibility of one round going through more than one building with a 223 or better
How many times during the day/month/year are they involved in an active shooter condition that warrants a high power rifle? I understand the position..."just once is enough" but doesn't that also apply to a homeowner,law abiding citizen who encounters the same situation but is limited on firepower/capacity by the crap act.

I support law enforcement but something to ponder is what they have vs US. They have swat teams,negotiating teams,snipers,traffic control,high capacity magazines,armored cars,portable command centers,tear gas,body armor. They also respond in numbers and mostly arrive after the fact,in time to do paperwork,tape off the scene,etc. What do we have....a fruit of the loom t-shirt that hasn't stopped anything to date.

Major pistol calibers will penetrate more drywall and wood than 5.56. The 5.56 begins to tumble in as litte as one layer of dry wall and tears itself apart onces it hits anything at all substantial once yawed. The long and fragile OTM bullets in particular are very good at being highly effective in soft tissue while limiting penetration on harder surfaces. In fact 5.56 may be the ideal round for LE general puropse use in a rifle/carbine.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I believe the .40 gains about the least amount of velocity out of longer tubes than any modern service cartridge. What a stupid decision. Stick with the shotgun.

Also that guy has the most 90's haircut ever.

 

[Podmonkey]

I believe the .40 gains about the least amount of velocity out of longer tubes than any modern service cartridge. What a stupid decision. Stick with the shotgun.

Also that guy has the most 90's haircut ever.

I didn't notice before but sure enough, that is one helluva 90s mullet he's rockin'!

 

[Marine Cpl]

If they change their carry load to Corbon DPX, they will scream out of a 16 inch barrel at 1650 fps. It'll be faster than a 10mm pistol that is "Bear Approved." Just saying.

 

[The30oz]

*watching the news*

*sees cops walking through back yards and searching cars with rifles drawn*

"These damn cop'ers pretending to be soldiers"

"There to militerized!"

*hire-ups decline rifle purchases for police department*

"How can cops cop if cops cant cop without real rifles?"

"They need those rifles... just in case... north hollywood shootout!"

 

[GOPerfect]

Beg to differ with you GOP, the politicians should always be involved. We just need to elect politicians that are there to serve in the best traditions of America, not leach from the system.
Robin

Okay, I'm good with that.

 

[ECU Pirates]

If they change their carry load to Corbon DPX, they will scream out of a 16 inch barrel at 1650 fps. It'll be faster than a 10mm pistol that is "Bear Approved." Just saying.

They won't change. What load would that be and how does it perform out of a g22?


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[Marine Cpl]

They won't change. What load would that be and how does it perform out of a g22?


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I got that from Ballistics by the Inch. After looking at it again, it wasn't the DPX that had the 1650 fps velocity. It was their conventional 135 gr HP. The DPX did however get around 1300 fps from a 5 inch barrel.

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .40 S&W Results

 

[pmcjuryny]

That and penetrating body armor, which .40 is going to suck at.

I don't see any reason bpd couldn't have ar's, but sighting the increase in criminals wearing body armor, by siting a single decades old case is laughable. They better come up with something other then the Miami bank robbers of they want that arguement to be taken seriously.

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[Deplorable Me]

I believe the .40 gains about the least amount of velocity out of longer tubes than any modern service cartridge. What a stupid decision. Stick with the shotgun.

Also that guy has the most 90's haircut ever.

Ditto.

Apparently the police chief's experience is limited to X-Box and Play Station.

 

[UltraT]

I don't see any reason bpd couldn't have ar's, but sighting the increase in criminals wearing body armor, by siting a single decades old case is laughable. They better come up with something other then the Miami bank robbers of they want that arguement to be taken seriously.

It's rare, but it seems to happen every couple of years where a person who decides to kill a bunch of people randomly dons a vest. Also, vests are very easy to acquire (as they should be). Gang members are sometimes caught with them when the cops find their weapon stashes.

 

[Sweetyzfd]

I just like his mullet!!!

 

[pmcjuryny]

It's rare, but it seems to happen every couple of years where a person who decides to kill a bunch of people randomly dons a vest. Also, vests are very easy to acquire (as they should be). Gang members are sometimes caught with them when the cops find their weapon stashes.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I know exactly how easy it is to aquire armor, but if that is going to be a justification for needing a rifle, chambered in a rifle round, recent examples should be provided, and if available stats showing it as a continuing if infrequent problem. A single decades old incident should not be a reason to make or change policy.

An interesting side note, as a nonleo, I find it is easier to get rifle rated plates than concealable soft armor.

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[ECU Pirates]

I got that from Ballistics by the Inch. After looking at it again, it wasn't the DPX that had the 1650 fps velocity. It was their conventional 135 gr HP. The DPX did however get around 1300 fps from a 5 inch barrel.

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .40 S&W Results

View attachment 10178

Pushing a hollow point that fast.... might have penetration issues if it opens up too fast. Still put a hole in a frying pan though.

 

[spat]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I know exactly how easy it is to aquire armor, but if that is going to be a justification for needing a rifle, chambered in a rifle round, recent examples should be provided, and if available stats showing it as a continuing if infrequent problem. A single decades old incident should not be a reason to make or change policy.

An interesting side note, as a nonleo, I find it is easier to get rifle rated plates than concealable soft armor.

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The point is either they need rifles, or they don't. If you are going to argue that they need more than a pistol, then they should have a real rifle. Giving them this is just silly.

 

[UltraT]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I know exactly how easy it is to aquire armor, but if that is going to be a justification for needing a rifle, chambered in a rifle round, recent examples should be provided, and if available stats showing it as a continuing if infrequent problem. A single decades old incident should not be a reason to make or change policy.

An interesting side note, as a nonleo, I find it is easier to get rifle rated plates than concealable soft armor.

Here's a couple incidents from 2009:

"Police said 41-year-old Jiverly Wong was wearing a bulletproof vest when he burst into the American Civic Association in Binghamton on Friday morning and killed 13 people before taking his own life.

Richard Poplawski, 23, was wearing one when he killed three Pittsburgh police officers who were responding to a domestic disturbance call Saturday."

Edited*

 

[MilesTeg]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I know exactly how easy it is to aquire armor, but if that is going to be a justification for needing a rifle, chambered in a rifle round, recent examples should be provided, and if available stats showing it as a continuing if infrequent problem. A single decades old incident should not be a reason to make or change policy.

An interesting side note, as a nonleo, I find it is easier to get rifle rated plates than concealable soft armor.

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To me the reason low enforcement needs rifles has nothing to do with armor penetration. I find this angle to be completely false and I don't understand how people are arguing this. The reason they should be equipped with a rifle is for an active shooter situation. All patrol cars should have a rifle and shotgun in the trunk incase they are needed. As a side note this same sentient goes for all Americans.

As far as the choice to go with pistol carbine, I have mixed feelings on it. On one aspect I really like the idea of having a rifle that takes the same ammo and magazines as their carry weapons. For them to be able to grab the rifle and not need to grab extra ammo and just use what is already on their belt is a win win.

The real argument here is pistol carbine vs rifle ballistics. Do police need to be able to shoot farther than a pistol caliber carbine will allow? I don't know, personal belief is probably not. The next argument is terminal ballistics of the two rounds. Can it be justified to have the heightened terminal ballistics of a riffle round over a pistol round fired from a carbine. Once again I'm not sure of the answer, but if you look at the terminal ballistics of a pistol round fired from a carbine are pretty impressive.

 

[UltraT]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcn...e-oklahoma-troopers-chase-kill-murder-n676481

 

[UltraT]

https://www.google.com/amp/abc7ny.c...uspect-wearing-vest-on-staten-island/1687304/

Both are situations where a rifle caliber is very helpful. First one, for shooting through a truck, second one for the suspect with body armor.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Here's a couple incidents from 2009:

"Police said 41-year-old Jiverly Wong was wearing a bulletproof vest when he burst into the American Civic Association in Binghamton on Friday morning and killed 13 people before taking his own life.

Richard Poplawski, 23, was wearing one when he killed three Pittsburgh police officers who were responding to a domestic disturbance call Saturday."

The information on wong is incorrect. Didn't matter though. SWAT staged and waited and waited and waited some more. When he killed himself they finally went in. It was a load bearing vest.

 

[UltraT]

The information on wong is incorrect. Didn't matter though. SWAT staged and waited and waited and waited some more. When he killed himself they finally went in. It was a load bearing vest.

My mistake, the source was Associated Press. I figured it would be correct by now.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

YAWN!

Not a big deal. They will survive. Shooting a carbine is far easier than a pistol.

Fine choice (40cal. Carbine. Although i would have run a different platform.......)IMO.

 

[WileyX585]

Selling to the government of tyrants who disregards the god-given rights of its citizens as free Americans. Same as selling trade weapons to the Indians.

So boycott Glock, SIG and so on for providing LEA with magazines over 10 rounds. Also, go ahead and stop buying ARs becuase bushmaster, and several other companies supply LEA with rifles that are not compliant. JRC is selling guns to them, so what? I think that's over reacting

 

[Podmonkey]

*watching the news*

*sees cops walking through back yards and searching cars with rifles drawn*

"These damn cop'ers pretending to be soldiers"

"There to militerized!"

*hire-ups decline rifle purchases for police department*

"How can cops cop if cops cant cop without real rifles?"

"They need those rifles... just in case... north hollywood shootout!"

I've never had a problem with police being armed with 5.56/223 carbines. I'm very of leary of cops running around in full battle rattle and armored vehicles but carbines such as the AR15 are in common civilian usage and as I've already stated, I think the 5.56/223 is an ideal round for LE usage. Worried about overpenetration? You shouldn't be but 69 or 77gr OTM stuff should limit that risk well. Need barrier penetration? Numerous soft/hollowpoint expanding rounds exist for that too. Maybe even allow a magazine or two of M995 AP to be kept in the vehicle for use against heavily barricaded suspects or for Hollywood shootout contingencies.
I do wanna say though I don't think there is wrong with the JRC though.

 

[pmcjuryny]

The point is either they need rifles, or they don't. If you are going to argue that they need more than a pistol, then they should have a real rifle. Giving them this is just silly.

Here's a couple incidents from 2009:

"Police said 41-year-old Jiverly Wong was wearing a bulletproof vest when he burst into the American Civic Association in Binghamton on Friday morning and killed 13 people before taking his own life.

Richard Poplawski, 23, was wearing one when he killed three Pittsburgh police officers who were responding to a domestic disturbance call Saturday."

Edited*

To me the reason low enforcement needs rifles has nothing to do with armor penetration. I find this angle to be completely false and I don't understand how people are arguing this. The reason they should be equipped with a rifle is for an active shooter situation. All patrol cars should have a rifle and shotgun in the trunk incase they are needed. As a side note this same sentient goes for all Americans.

As far as the choice to go with pistol carbine, I have mixed feelings on it. On one aspect I really like the idea of having a rifle that takes the same ammo and magazines as their carry weapons. For them to be able to grab the rifle and not need to grab extra ammo and just use what is already on their belt is a win win.

The real argument here is pistol carbine vs rifle ballistics. Do police need to be able to shoot farther than a pistol caliber carbine will allow? I don't know, personal belief is probably not. The next argument is terminal ballistics of the two rounds. Can it be justified to have the heightened terminal ballistics of a riffle round over a pistol round fired from a carbine. Once again I'm not sure of the answer, but if you look at the terminal ballistics of a pistol round fired from a carbine are pretty impressive.

I wasn't saying they shouldnt have rifles, The article brought up the need to penetrate armor as a justification to equip bpd with rifles. I'm saying if the author is going to use armor penetration as a justification the author needs to provide an up to date and continuing need not a single incident from decades ago.

I see lots of benefits to ar's in patrol cars, added range, increased accuracy, increased capacity, just off the top of my head. Those are all good reasons to put rifles in patrol cars, with readily available and current examples to support them.

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