Incompetent Buffalo PD Boss Forces Underpowered Carbines On Officers

[MilesTeg]

My point was that a standard 5.56 round is not armor piercing. Because of this fact you can't use body armor penetration as a justification of cops having rifles. This was the main justification of the article and it's absurd. I agree with everything pmc laid out as reasons for them having rifles.

 

[UltraT]

My point was that a standard 5.56 round is not armor piercing. Because of this fact you can't use body armor penetration as a justification of cops having rifles. This was the main justification of the article and it's absurd. I agree with everything pmc laid out as reasons for them having rifles.

Um, except you need a hard plate to stop 5.56. It zips through IIIA and lesser levels of soft armor.

 

[pmcjuryny]

Um, except you need a hard plate to stop 5.56. It zips through IIIA and lesser levels of soft armor.

Yup. I have heard 5.56 through a soft vest can be worse then a straight hit because the vest can cause the bullet to yaw and tumble sooner.

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[MilesTeg]

Unless I'm mistaken most pistol rounds fired from a carbine defeats soft armor also. They gain a huge increase of speed from the longer barrel.

 

[Podmonkey]

Yup. I have heard 5.56 through a soft vest can be worse then a straight hit because the vest can cause the bullet to yaw and tumble sooner.

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I'd be surprised if that was actually a factor.

 

[UltraT]

Unless I'm mistaken most pistol rounds fired from a carbine defeats soft armor also. They gain a huge increase of speed from the longer barrel.

Honestly I'm not sure how that would work. The good soft vests are rated for .40s&w, but that's at a certain velocity. I don't know how fast you would need to push a .40 for penetration. But .40 should be easier to defeat than 9mm because of the larger cross section (at similar velocities).

 

[Podmonkey]

If restricted to a PCC I always thought 357 SIG would be a rockin' round for that application. Would 357 SIG out of a 16" barrel come close to .30 Carbine I wonder?

 

[UltraT]

Here's some ratings (there may also be a hidden safety factor for these):

 

[pmcjuryny]

I'm kind of surprised by the velocities out of a rifle length barrel for 40 s&w

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[MilesTeg]

So depending on the ammo selection 40 s&w shot from a pistol carbine is right on the edge of penetrating the highest level of soft armor.

As far as the 357sig I think I might have to make a carbine in it. I'm itching for another build.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm kind of surprised by the velocities out of a rifle length barrel for 40 s&w

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In a carbine, they don't gain as much as a 9mm does. I was surprised as well.

Once again. 9mm for the win.

 

[pmcjuryny]

In a carbine, they don't gain as much as a 9mm does. I was surprised as well.

Yeah, I'm surprised the gold dots and hydra shocks seemed to have some of the smallest improvements. I wonder if HSTs are any better. Corbon is good ammo, but not usually what I think of as a duty catridge, but maybe they have more of the market then I think.

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[GOPerfect]

This decision has a lot less to do with ballistics and more to do with propaganda. Granted, there is a good conversation going on here, but it has nothing to do with reality. The City of Buffalo and those who run it, are very gun unfriendly. The mindset is of the thinking that AR's are a dangerous weapon. They are afraid that the High Velocity Ammo will penetrate homes and cars and kill the innocent.

 

[Podmonkey]

This decision has a lot less to do with ballistics and more to do with propaganda. Granted, there is a good conversation going on here, but it has nothing to do with reality. The City of Buffalo and those who run it, are very gun unfriendly. The mindset is of the thinking that AR's are a dangerous weapon. They are afraid that the High Velocity Ammo will penetrate homes and cars and kill the innocent.

Idiots and fools.

 

[GOPerfect]

Idiots and fools.

Absolutely. Some here and in the general public sector would be very surprised at some of the Policies and politics that go into this type of employment.

 

[spat]

My point was that a standard 5.56 round is not armor piercing. Because of this fact you can't use body armor penetration as a justification of cops having rifles. This was the main justification of the article and it's absurd. I agree with everything pmc laid out as reasons for them having rifles.

It is for soft body armor.

There is no such thing as an absolute "armor piercing" anymore than there is "bullet proof". Certainly .223 will penetrate far more armor than .40sw. There is very little that a .40sw carbine will penetrate that a .40 pistol will not.

In many cases a .223 has better penetration than a .308.

I'm generally against over-militarization of the police, I just don't see them having rifles that are commonly possessed by the rest of us as part of it.

How about this argument ? Aren't the carbines they are going to be issues "evil assault weapons that are only used for killing lots of people" ? Wouldn't they have been better off with some nice SAFE compliant mini-14's ?

 

[MilesTeg]

As stated above after looking at the numbers there's only one level of soft armor that the 40 out of a carbine won't penetrate compared to 5.56. Also this one level it won't penetrate it's right on the edge and if you read up on soft armor the blunt force is usually what stops the fight with soft armor. I still see the benefits of having a carbine that takes the same ammo and magazines as your side arm.

I stay out of the debate about what the police should and shouldn't have. The spiteful me agrees the should be equally equipped with what civilians can own. The other part of me wants them to every advantage of the responding to an active shooter in my kids school.

 

[GOPerfect]

It is for soft body armor.

There is no such thing as an absolute "armor piercing" anymore than there is "bullet proof". Certainly .223 will penetrate far more armor than .40sw. There is very little that a .40sw carbine will penetrate that a .40 pistol will not.

In many cases a .223 has better penetration than a .308.

I'm generally against over-militarization of the police, I just don't see them having rifles that are commonly possessed by the rest of us as part of it.

How about this argument ? Aren't the carbines they are going to be issues "evil assault weapons that are only used for killing lots of people" ? Wouldn't they have been better off with some nice SAFE compliant mini-14's ?

They considered them, again, the rifle round thingy...

Rifle rounds will go right through homes and kill the innocent.

 

[MilesTeg]

They considered them, again, the rifle round thingy...

Rifle rounds will go right through homes and kill the innocent.

Don't forget about the exploding heads if someone is hit with a 5.56. That would be a PR nightmare.

 

[spat]

They considered them, again, the rifle round thingy...

Rifle rounds will go right through homes and kill the innocent.

Did anyone suggest frangible .223 rounds or something ?

At least that would be easier insanity to reverse. Someone then could at least say "we'll load them with the frangible rounds, and keep a mag of AP available "just in case".....

 

[GOPerfect]

Did anyone suggest frangible .223 rounds or something ?

At least that would be easier insanity to reverse. Someone then could at least say "we'll load them with the frangible rounds, and keep a mag of AP available "just in case".....

All that I have heard from those in the know, the Policy makers wanted nothing to do with a rifle round. That is what it all boiled down to.

 

[Justincase]

^ So, these idiots knew just enough about ballistics to make themselves dangerous.

 

[GOPerfect]

^ So, these idiots knew just enough about ballistics to make themselves dangerous.

Yep, just like our friends in Albany

 

[Robin]

Love to have me one of those carbines in a .40, or .357 SIG!!
Robin

 

[ECU Pirates]

Love to have me one of those carbines in a .40, or .357 SIG!!
Robin

10mm would be nice also.

 

[MilesTeg]

Love to have me one of those carbines in a .40, or .357 SIG!!
Robin

I want one of the AR take downs in 357sig. I need to move to free state.

 

[meketrefe]

Aside for the endless ballistics discussions there is one about the quality of the system itself.
Just right is not a robust platform and not designed nor built for service critical duty.
In essence will be a nightmare. A good police chief should listen to his force and let them decide on
something robust, reliable and effective.
BTW the 5.56 claim in urban context is BS plus the assumption all the fights are going to be CBQ type
that is something most likely will be and organized raid and carried out by a well trained and equipped swat team.
What patrols need is a reliable all purpose powerful carbine and round.
The car rack claim is also BS. I would give them a 14" 6.8 for maximum power or otherwise a 5.56 that can also
be loaded with more frangile loads or varmint that are less of a concern but in a fight on the streets with cars used
for cover the fast moving fmjs have the upper hand.

This PD chief will piss all over and learn from costly mistakes and lack of leadership, like most politicians do.

 

[dsdmmat]

I want one of the AR take downs in 357sig. I need to move to free state.

9x25 Dillon is what you need.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

No last round hold open. If you shoot the gun dry, you need to drop the mag, stuff a new one in, and hand rack the bolt.

So? The rest of the world does it that way......

 

[Glenn B]

Color me old fashioned but I see absolutely no need to arm every officer with a long gun. In fact, I know some good arguments against it. First and foremost is the fact that not every officer will shoot them well enough to carry the routinely unless the qualification standards are lowered or fudged or they qualify by the skin of their teeth after a couple to a few failed attempts beforehand. I make that statement after 32 years in federal law enforcement and 15-16 of those years with collateral duties as a firearms instructor. I also believe that, if they are given normal capacity magazines for rifles or carbines (like 20 or 30 rounds), and they routinely carry them, they may get a sense of false bravado if they ever need to use them in a defensive situation and they will spray and pray by yanking the trigger as many times and as fast as they can until it goes click. That already happens with handguns, just look at the number of rounds fired by officers in some shootings. I believe that in such instances, those rifles or carbines will cause a higher risk of an innocent bystander being injured or killed.

Don't get me wrong; I am a fan of officers having sufficient firepower and of them but also of them knowing when to back off until help arrives and of them being sufficiently proficient with those weapons t have them issued. I am not a fan of every officer responding to every call with long arm in hand. Sufficient firepower for an officer on patrol could include a handgun or a long gun might be needed. Those initially issued long arms for routine patrol though should be, in my opinion, limited at first to shotguns and preferably to pump action shotguns. They require a bit of work to operate and that in essence cannot be utilized to spray and pray by the average officer. Shotguns though should be issued only to those who prove themselves truly above average in use of their revolvers or semi-auto pistols at the range and have an excellent safety record with firearms. Say for instance that a candidate to move up to issuance of a shotgun must first routinely qualify, on average, at 80 or 85% proficiency with handguns, then they must train with a shotgun and must maintain proficiency and an excellent safety record with them. Then, after at least on year of safe carry and proficient use of a shotgun, the officer could be issued a carbine or rifle. However, rifles or carbines should be issued only to those with an 85% average proficiency with the shotgun, just as the shotgun issuance required the same higher proficiency with handguns. In other words the departments and agencies should require that someone with consistently higher pistol qualification scores can try out for issuance of a shotgun, then those with a higher consistent proficiency with the shotgun can tryout for issuance of a rifle or carbine, and on up the line to burst or full auto weapons if in the department's inventory and then they must maintain an excellent safety record and a higher proficiency with them to continue issuance.

Don't lower standards for the shooter or the weapon - make the standards higher to help assure the officer carrying those weapons is truly proficient. This is in essence how it was done in one of my agencies regarding issuance of the H&K MP-5. I think though it should have been done relative to issuance of all long guns. One other thing, all officers should be required to familiarize and qualify, at least with the lowest passing score, with shotgun, rifle and or carbine during each qualification period. That to grab a fallen officers weapon and use it such an urgent situation ever arises. I seem to recall, but not with certainty, when we transitioned to Homeland Security such may have been the case with shotguns and MP4s.

I also believe that any special operations teams should require an average qualification score standard of at least 90 percent of the highest possible qualification score for all weapons including handguns, shotguns, rifles, carbines and burst fire or full auto weapons.

I think that any large department should strive to at least have 5-10% of their officers on special ops teams and about 20-25% of the officers on routine patrol armed with long guns. very small departments should attempt to have at least one highly proficient officer per shift armed with a long gun if practical. And as I pointed out above, every officer should be required to be familiar with all department standard issued long arms (like shotguns, rifles & carbines - and not necessarily burst or full auto weapons) and should be able to operate them and hopefully at least minimally qualify with them for use only in extremely urgent situations.