Incompetent Buffalo PD Boss Forces Underpowered Carbines On Officers

[Marine Cpl]

Are you saying They don't use shotguns???

For breaching hinges. But they aren't all equipped with them. If they were, they'd be a combat ineffective unit.

 

[Marine Cpl]

what are your specific advantages in a close quarters gun fight?

I'm talking about the advantages one gains using the same ammunition, magazines, accuracy, muzzle flash, concussion, ect with a PCC.

 

[holdover]

For breaching hinges. But they aren't all equipped with them. If they were, they'd be a combat ineffective unit.

That's one use, you think the guy goes back to the truck ?

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's one use, you think the guy goes back to the truck ?

It's usually a secondary gun.

 

[holdover]

I'm talking about the advantages one gains using the same ammunition, magazines, accuracy, muzzle flash, concussion, ect one gains with a PCC.

How does same ammunition help in a police gun fight? How does magazines help stop the threat ? accuracy under duress is not as much required with a shotgun as it is with a rifle, Im not sure how any of the things are going to be more important then stopping power and less need for accuracy .

take a good look at the wounding abilitys of the 556 the 308 the 45 . the shotgun beats them all at close range. That's what counts. hitting your target, and dropping your target are two most important things to consider about your weapon. magazines, muzzle flash are all secondary , Your mission is to drop the guy period.

Your thinking to much in terms of combat, where arming a platoon of riflemen with same weapons ammo ect are going to be important to the unit . Police work is a little different , as far as the needs go, they arnt going into battle and requireing a case'es of ammo

 

[holdover]

It's usually a secondary gun.

So they don't use the shotgun to actually shoot people?

 

[Marine Cpl]

How does same ammunition help in a police gun fight? How does magazines help stop the threat ? accuracy under duress is not as required with a shotgun , Im not sure how any of the things are going to be more important then stopping power and less need for accuracy .

take a good look at the wounding abilitys of the 556 the 308 the 45 . the shot beats them all at close range. That's what counts. hitting your target, and dropping your target are two most important things to consider about your weapon. magazines, muzzle flash are all secondary , Your mission is to drop the guy period.

Your thinking to much in terms of combat, where arming a platoon of riflemen with same weapons ammo ect are going to be important to the unit . Police work is a little different , as far as the needs go

You just said it. Hitting your target and dropping your target is what counts. Unless you are saying that a .40 S&W going ai about 1200 to 1300 fps is not lethal.

The PCC gives the officer the ability to do that at greater distances.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So they don't use the shotgun to actually shoot people?

Of course it's used depending on the situation. But it is more often not used and a rifled barrel is used. You are grasping at straws.

Stick to the facts like you do in Sandy Hook.

 

[MilesTeg]

I guess I will trow my hat back into this ring. First of the people who think police should have nothing more than tier side arm are full of crap. You can't tell me if there's an active shooter at your kids/grandkids school you won't want the police to have superior fire power to stop the threat.

For the shotgun vs rifle debate going on. I call it chalk it up to person preference and envisioned scenarios.

For the first part preference, I have met people the are surgeons with q given platform and terrible with another. I'm one of those people, amazing with a rifle, pretty good with a shotgun and mediocre at best with a handgun. Why should the department choose what a given cop will use? Is it really so much money every patrol car can't have a rifle and a shotgun in the trunk? With all the tickets they write they shouldn't have a lack of funds.

For the second part, the envisioned scenarios. We have heard things from a bad gun darting across a hall to a bad guy having a hostage and having to take the shot. The truth of the matter is there is infinite scenarios and no one platform is going to be the best tool for all of them. Again I will ask the same question is it really that wrong to equip each patrol car with a rifle and shotgun and let the cop choose what use if such a terrible scenario happens? I will put my scenarios in there for food for thought. A cop is responding to an active shooting and the report comes in the bad guy is on the roof picking people off. The cop is armed with his sidearm and a shotgun, what are the odds of him stopping the threat effectively? The next one, a bad guy is holed up in an abandoned office building with no known hostages. The police officer is an amazing shotgun shooter and has trained regularly with one for his preferred home defense but his department only allows a sidearm that he barely can qualify with and a rifle he doesn't care for. He goes in trying to get the bad guy and pulls the shot into the bad guy because he slapped the trigger of his rifle like a shotgun because of the hight stress situation and muscle memory.

So my opinion is what platform is more effective...... well it depends.

 

[holdover]

Your the claiming its only secondary , which means he would transition to another weapon. So I asked if they actually used it shoot people. Im not grasping at anything here . its what you said.

The thing is, every Dept and every special force and swat team use it. they use it because it works , it has worked well since they began issuing them to police , the US military has used them. They are combat tested, and are for a fact a very effective close range weapon for police and soldiers . The AR was not specifically built or designed for close in fighting , it is a general purpose carbine , which means it does a lot of stuff good , but not the best.

 

[holdover]

""Why should the department choose what a given cop will use?""

because in the city over penetration is a serious problem that cant just be swept under the rug, as far as sheriffs or state troopers outside of the citys I don't care if they have 308s but in the city I have an issue with that , unless they use frangible ammo .

 

[Podmonkey]

Your the claiming its only secondary , which means he would transition to another weapon. So I asked if they actually used it shoot people. Im not grasping at anything here . its what you said.

The thing is, every Dept and every special force and swat team use it. they use it because it works , it has worked well since they began issuing them to police , the US military has used them. They are combat tested, and are for a fact a very effective close range weapon for police and soldiers . The AR was not specifically built or designed for close in fighting , it is a general purpose carbine , which means it does a lot of stuff good , but not the best.

SBR 5.56 guns work so well in close quarters thatbthey have largely replaced 9mm submachine guns, particularly in this country. The only drawback to 5.56 carbines in CQB is the tremendous blast. Suppresors take care of that issue however, and when mounted on a 10.5" gun still makes for a compact and handy arm. Of course innthis configuration its a dedicated room sweeper. For patrol use either the 14.5" or 16" would be more useful overall. Also in 5.56 at least I don't think going to frangible ammo is necessary to prevent overpenetration issues. I've seen videoes where 77gr OTMs struggle to get through car doors.

 

[holdover]

There is nothing really wrong with either , Some are saying the shotgun is an obsolete weapon used for ducks, when it clearly isn't. Im not saying The AR is a bad weapon , Ive trained on both , I understand their limitations and applications and in my opinion it is still a very effective close range weapon that the AR cannot compete with in close quarters

 

[Podmonkey]

The shotgun definitely still has a role. No reason a squad car can't have an AR and a shotgun in it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'll say this and leave it at that.

When I used to have my shotgun, I zeroed it with slugs at 25 yards. Great! Loaded it with Federal Flight control 00 buck. 5 yards....tight! 10 yards...softball size. 25 yards....all over the place! Some pellets were missing the half man sized target entirely. There was no group to speak of at all.

So with that said, it's only a 15 yard weapon at most. The disadvantages outweigh the positives. A CQB fight could easily turn into a non CQB fight. Think a school gym or a long hallway.

If I was a lone cop, I would want something that can be used up close and at distance with plenty of rounds that can be reloaded quickly rather than up close ONLY.

As far as having one of each, I don't want to grab the shotgun thinking it will suffice and the fight changes with my AR left in the trunk.

 

[Marine Cpl]

There is nothing really wrong with either , Some are saying the shotgun is an obsolete weapon used for ducks, when it clearly isn't. Im not saying The AR is a bad weapon , Ive trained on both , I understand their limitations and applications and in my opinion it is still a very effective close range weapon that the AR cannot compete with in close quarters

Turkey too!

 

[MilesTeg]

I'll say this and leave it at that.

When I used to have my shotgun, I zeroed it with slugs at 25 yards. Great! Loaded it with Federal Flight control 00 buck. 5 yards....tight! 10 yards...softball size. 25 yards....all over the place! Some pellets were missing the half man sized target entirely.

So with that said, it's only a 15 yard weapon at most. The disadvantages outweigh the positives. A CQB fight could easily turn into a non CQB fight. Think a school gym or a long hallway.

If I was a lone cop, I would want something that can be used up close and at distance rather than close ONLY.

This very well maybe true but I have seen the opposite. Noticed the "seen" in my statement, that is because whilst hunting besides shotgun people I use a rifle it's my preference. I have seen shotgun people take a coyote running full speed at 75+ yards with buckshot. I have done myself and seen numerous people take deer with slugs 125+ yards with a slug. Myself I have went 150yards standing still. So again I say it comes down to the individual. Some of the people I have seen do amazing things with a shotgun, I wouldn't go near them with pistol in their hands. There is no universal here in this argument. The only argument to be had is pistol carbine vs 16" rifle for police use.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Correct. PCC vs rifle. So it boils down to cost. Neither is going to handicap the officer at a 50 yard range max.

 

[MilesTeg]

Correct. PCC vs rifle. So it boils down to cost. Neither is going to handicap the officer at a 50 yard range max.

Agreed and you can almost argue out to the 100yd point. The convince of same ammo and magazines for the side arm and the carbine is huge for the average police. Which to me gives the carbine a slight advantage over a rifles ballistics for police use. But I can recognize this isn't a solid stance for myself because personally I would rather have a rifle.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Agreed and you can almost argue out to the 100yd point. The convince of same ammo and magazines for the side arm and the carbine is huge for the average police. Which to me gives the carbine a slight advantage over a rifles ballistics for police use. But I can recognize this isn't a solid stance for myself because personally I would rather have a rifle.

You can add muzzle flash and concussion to the advantages over a rifle.

I may want a rifle myself just because but if I was the Chief, from a cost standpoint, I'd choose the PCC for my officers. The reason being is they aren't going to take 100 yard plus shots anyway. Within that range, both with a PCC and a rifle, a central nervous shot, artery clip, or vital organ shot equals a dead man.

I get to save money by not having to buy them extra magazines and ammo. I give them the ability to carry more ammo without adding different pouches to their belts. I also free the city from potential lawsuits since handgun rounds are already accepted.

Plus I have my Swat teams ready to respond at a moments notice.

Win. Win. The article is misleading and paints the Chief in a bad light.

 

[Podmonkey]

I've always thought that PCCs were a bit of a novelty. They do have their niche uses eg range toy, bug out/survival arm and a viable option for a home defense bump in the night gun, what with the reduced muzzle blast and all. Still I think the PCC is inferior in every way for duty use. My big issue with this topic however is not really the selection of the Just Right Carbine however but the automatic dismissal of the AR 15 as an evil, dangerous scary gun. Such an assertion was childish and foolish.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I've always thought that PCCs were a bit of a novelty. They do have their niche uses eg range toy, bug out/survival arm and a viable option for a home defense bump in the night gun, what with the reduced muzzle blast and all. Still I think the PCC is inferior in every way for duty use. My big issue with this topic however is not really the selection of the Just Right Carbine however but the automatic dismissal of the AR 15 as an evil, dangerous scary gun. Such an assertion was childish and foolish.

True about the dangerous and scary. As far as the novelty goes, within 150 yards, both will kill you. One would leave a 1 inch diameter hole and the other would leave a .70 inch diameter hole if it expanded.

The only plus is that the rifle will penetrate armor.

So within a 150 yard range, other than armor, there are more advantages to the PCC.

 

[Marine Cpl]

.223 rifle above. 9mm carbine below. I couldn't find a .40 carbine test. Both will reach out to acceptable police shooting ranges and both will penetrate enough to kill you. The .223 reached 19 imches in pieces and the 9mm reached 16 inches whole.

 

[Podmonkey]

True about the dangerous and scary. As far as the novelty goes, within 150 yards, both will kill you. One would leave a 1 inch diameter hole and the other would leave a .70 inch diameter hole if it expanded.

The only plus is that the rifle will penetrate armor.

So within a 150 yard range, other than armor, there are more advantages to the PCC.

At any distance within the fragmentation range the terminal effect of a 5.56 round far outstrips any pistol round. Also failing actual M995 AP the 5.56 is mediocre against any but light, soft armor. But I imagine LE agencies may be able to lay hands on some M995 for special occasions. The ethics of such is another matter altogether. I also see the practical range of PCCs as 100 yards. One chambered in 10mm or 357 SIG may extend that some. Honestly the M1 carbine would serve well in this role, but I would not advocate placing old milsurp guns in service and the new production models seem to have issues. But ballistically speaking I think the .30 carbine would make an excellent LE cartridge.

 

[Marine Cpl]

At any distance within the fragmentation range the terminal effect of a 5.56 round far outstrips any pistol round. Also failing actual M995 AP the 5.56 is mediocre against any but light, soft armor. But I imagine LE agencies may be able to lay hands on some M995 for special occasions. The ethics of such is another matter altogether. I also see the practical range of PCCs as 100 yards. Obe chambered in 10mm or 357 SIG may extend that some. Honestly the M1 carbine would serve well in this role, but I would not advocate placing old milsurp guns in service and the new production models seem to have issues. But ballistically speaking I think the .30 carbine would make an excellent LE cartridge.

.357 Sig. Now you are talking. 1700 fps with a 16 inch barrel.

 

[Marine Cpl]

.357 Magnum carbine vs level 3A body armor. .357 Sig would be about the same.

 

[spat]

Shotguns are pointless in police work in my opinion. I believe those that remain are holdovers from past tactics and beliefs.

Call me nuts, but other than bird hunting, I don't see much use for shotguns at all in the modern world with the options we have. I only have one and I rarely take it out of the safe.

A shotgun is a swiss army knife.

It's not the tool you go to if you've got the right tool, but if you can only have one tool to cover all posibilities it's not a bad choice.

 

[Marine Cpl]

A shotgun is a swiss army knife.

It's not the tool you go to if you've got the right tool, but if you can only have one tool to cover all posibilities it's not a bad choice.

I can agree if the right ammo is used.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Cool. It's still a rifle though.

I never heard of a .40 s&w rifle. I have heard them referred to as carbines though. Even the name has carbine in it. Terrible choice but better than what the NYPD authorizes for most officers I guess (if they are even durable enough).

 

[ECU Pirates]

I've seen videoes where 77gr OTMs struggle to get through car doors.

Why did you like this Will? If it can't make it through a car door how will it penetrate a frying pan?