If they were justified self defense then yes 81 or 881 would be acceptable. You're missing the point. How many of the 81 were unjustified shoots?
Maryland SWAT Team Serving Red Flag Warrant Shoot, Kill 21-Year-Old Man Asleep In His Bed
- Thread starter PutnamCharlie
- Start date
PutnamCharlie
6.5 Creedmoor
enough of them. One is too many.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
What about the 13 officers killed serving these, are they just "acceptable losses" to you too ?
IMHO, the fact that it was only 13 officers means that the vast majority of these were unnecessary.
A real dangerous criminal that might actually justify one of these would also be prepared for one. I know they like to keep their methods all secret, but I doubt the entry team has a plan to survive a good IED for instance.
Your argument seems to be that "we raided a lot of people unnecessarily, but our stats look good because grandma and the baby didn't fight back"
If your family member was killed in (insert any cause here), then you might have a different opinion of that also. Doesn't mean the world should change because 1 thing happened that effected you.
96coal449
.308 Win
I logged in yesterday with the thought I may be missing something. 
No but they sighed up for it and they know the risk they take. Some people have the guts to do it, others do not.
The fact that 13 officers were killed shows you how well trained they are and how well they execute their plan. It has no correlation to if the raid was necessary. If I have a fentanyl operation that has the potential to kill thousands and the police raid me but no shots were fired, then the raid was unnecessary in your view? Stunning.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The world should change because these are unnecessary, unjustifiable, and dangerous for everyone.
Your "if you're not a cop your not entitled to an opinion" mentality is not going to win this argument.
If I take my car (that was running fine) in for an oil change, and it's running like shit afterwards the mechanic telling me "you're not a mechanic your opinion is invalid" is not going to get him off the hook.
96coal449
.308 Win
Why would a no knock be necessary?
Because they aren't there delivering a pizza. Most of these people are very dangerous and need to be apprehended by other methods. The element of surprise is a huge advantage.
Knock, knock, knock... Who is it?
The police!
Be right there!
*Flushes 8 lbs of coke down toilet*, *grabs rifle and goes to 2nd story window and starts firing out at officers*
I'd rather come in while you're sleeping like a baby, sucking on your thumb.
If that is the case police should turn in theirs as a lot believe people shouldnt be able to defend themselves and just call police.
That is your opinion. The people who actually have to do it disagree.
No idea where this came from. What are you talking about?
Not one innocent should pay the price. I would rather see guilty man go free than an innocent man be wrongly convicted. I am pretty sure out founders thought the same way.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Yep. A raid on a fentanyl operation is unnecessary.
How much more or less fentanyl would be "on the street" if you didn't conduct that raid ? The answer is exactly the same amount.
It accomplishes nothing. All the drugs and dealers you impound and arrest will be replaced immediately. You have risked those officers (and everyone else in the neighborhood) lives for nothing.
Imagine if 13 officers died doing this:
And you just went on about how "you're not a professional flood control officer, you have no idea how much worse it would be without these guys"
I agree. But we aren't talking about being convicted of anything. A little off subject here.
Your response shows your limited understanding on the subject. You realize smaller guys are taken down to get to the big guy, right?
96coal449
.308 Win
So conventional police work will not suffice. Oh that's right.....not in this day and age.
You are delusional. You sound like a bad cop.
Not at all, either way we are talking about peoples lives. Cops are supposed to be trusted to save lives not take them because it's more convenient.
Toecutter
.308 Win
Fent ,meth both drugs created because of the war on drugs . Police can’t stop the flow of drugs, they never will no matter how hard they try. Both horrible synthetic substance s created due to illegal acts by our government. Even the people suffering under drug cartels in south and Central America all caused by the US government and their war of drugs.
What are you talking about? The post implied that police should not shoot even in self defense. If that is the case nobody should therefore why does that poster have guns himself?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Being subjected to a no knock raid is very punishing, even if you aren't ever charged with anything.
Even if the officers realized they were at the wrong house and just pack up and leave, your door is still smashed, your dog is dead, your kids are traumatized and your house is trashed.
That is a different subject with a wide degree of differing opinions.
What about the mother who lost a son to an OD? She would be pushing for tougher drug laws. "If only her son could have been saved". We have now gone full circle. See how that works?
No my post refers to your post. Because there are cops that actually think people shouldnt be able to defend themselves. Where almost everyone thinks cops should be able to defend themselves. Sword cuts in both directions.
Those are very extreme examples of something so incredibly rare. You are doing exactly what the dems do when pushing to take guns. Cite the most extreme example of something that effects almost none of the population and make it seem like everyone is dying.
Agree. But you aren't defending yourself against the police. If you aren't putting them into a deadly situation you will see your day in court.
96coal449
.308 Win
There is a difference between constitutional and unconstitutional.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
You guys have been following that strategy for 40 years. How much better off is society for it ?
Oh, yea, the drugs are more addictive, the criminals more ruthless and organized, our civil liberties trashed and anyone who wants it can *still* get any drug they want faster than a pizza.
I'd rather they could just order their fentanyl on Amazon before things get any worse.
Amazon can take out *all* of them. You guys take out the next El-Chapo or Pablo Escobar and someone more ruthless just takes his place the next day.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
A justifiable use of SWAT is an extreme example of something incredibly rare. Of those 50k raids I bet no more than a handful are justifiable.
You're implying with no evidence that police are murdering people. If it's not a justified shooting then that is wrong and they should face the music just like anyone else.
Who's "you guys"?
What happens when the postal workers drop dead from handling the package? Is that justified under your "plan"? Do you know how fentanyl works or how dangerous it is?
96coal449
.308 Win
My one and only opinion ..... raids should be performed as a no knock when impeding danger is upon innocent lives.
Other raids on drug labs can be successfully deployed when surveillance has been well established. Arrest the perp off premise and raid the establishment when innocents will not be compromised ...... warrants provided.
Other raids on drug labs can be successfully deployed when surveillance has been well established. Arrest the perp off premise and raid the establishment when innocents will not be compromised ...... warrants provided.