Shooting at Uvalde Texas elementary school

[spat]

Now up to 18 kids and 2 adults dead

Also just confirmed that $100m is left in the budget that was issued to schools for COVID - unused

This money needs to be allocated to school
Security - hardened entrance, armed security, bullet proof glass - whatever

But that spare $100m already allocated for schools needs to be used

Hardened entrances, bullerproof glass, one or 2 armed guards to cover an entire school, none of that will help.

The solution is simple. Armed teachers.

Repeal the gun free school zone bullshit. It doesn't do anything.

Then reallocate that money to train and arm any teachers who are willing.

 

[zorro]

”hardened entrance, armed security, bullet proof glass - whatever”


None of that will help?

NONE?

But arm the English teacher, the woodwork teacher who will need regular, repeated training and support and is expected to strap a gun to their hip in class in front of 8/9 year old kids and then engage the shooter once they have entered the classroom

I know of cops that have almost shit themselves trying to subdue a guy with a gun, but you want the teacher to be responsible

ok …….if you say so

 

[spat]

Well, the root cause is mental health but the simple fact is that after adjusting for population size the mass shootings in the USA are much higher than in other western nations. You can debate what the appropriate resolution is but in no other western nation can young men (the primary instigator of these events) so easily get semi automatic rifles, which are generally the gun used in the most egregious events.

For those saying the answer is armed security you’re wrong unless that security is walking around with a rifle, and protected in a manner to prevent being snuck up on and dispatched first. Tops had armed security and he failed to stop the slaughter.

Would you be happier if they used bombs ?

 

[SonOfSun]

I agree. Pass a law to mandate armed security in EVERY American school. That will do more to stop these situations than any amount of gun control.

That won't solve the problem. The Buffalo Tops had an armed guard, the shooters will plan for it. The shooters plan this stuff, they're mentally and morally defective, but not "stupid" (in the sense that they can't make a plan). 55 years ago you could order a gun shipped through the mail right to your door, no questions asked. We didn't have high school aged kids taking guns to schools and shooting them up then. It's a cultural issue and it's pathetic.

 

[spat]

”hardened entrance, armed security, bullet proof glass - whatever”


None of that will help?

NONE?

But arm the English teacher, the woodwork teacher who will need regular, repeated training and support and is expected to strap a gun to their hip in class in front of 8/9 year old kids and then engage the shooter once they have entered the classroom

I know of cops that have almost shit themselves trying to subdue a guy with a gun, but you want the teacher to be responsible

ok …….if you say so

If you're the English teacher and you hear the murderer coming down the hall, would you want to be armed with a can of soup or a gun ?

 

[zorro]

They probably want neither

They may however prefer the ability to fully secure the door internally and remain in class

There is no way the average teacher wants to be armed and be held responsible for engaging an active shooter


How many active shootings do you see at say…….

banks
Tax office
DMV
airports
corporate offices in NYC

as an example

Why………….because they have armed guards ready to respond

 

[Acer-m14]

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Why are you guys assuming a shooter needs to go inside the school? Had this or any of the relatively recent school shooters just waited outside for school to let out the body count could have been much higher. There's really no solution. You've gotta be prepared as best you can but when it's time to go it's time to go.

 

[spat]

”hardened entrance, armed security, bullet proof glass - whatever”


None of that will help?

NONE?

But arm the English teacher, the woodwork teacher who will need regular, repeated training and support and is expected to strap a gun to their hip in class in front of 8/9 year old kids and then engage the shooter once they have entered the classroom

I know of cops that have almost shit themselves trying to subdue a guy with a gun, but you want the teacher to be responsible

ok …….if you say so

If you're the English teacher and you hear the murderer coming down the hall, would you want to be armed with a can of soup or a gun

 

[spat]

They probably want neither

They may however prefer the ability to fully secure the door internally and remain in class

There is no way the average teacher wants to be armed and be held responsible for engaging an active shooter


How many active shootings do you see at say…….

banks
Tax office
DMV
airports
corporate offices in NYC

as an example

Why………….because they have armed guards ready to respond

I know plenty of teachers (or former teachers) who absolutely do want to be armed to be able to respond.

When the SHTF, good men want to be able to respond, not to cower and hope someone else shows up to "do something".

I'm not sure we want the sorts of people who don't to be teaching our kids.

 

[Acer-m14]

2018 .. news ..

Advocates say arming Texas school employees won’t cost that much. But many districts don’t want to do it.

Experts say it costs about $500 to train a school employee under Texas' school marshal program. But school leaders say their worries go beyond the cost.

www.texastribune.org

Abbott’s plan doesn’t mandate arming teachers. Rather, it would provide funds to schools that utilize Texas’ school marshal program — one of two programs that arm teachers in more than 200 of Texas’ 1,000-plus school districts.

A majority of Texans say they support arming teachers. According to a recent Quinnipiac poll conducted in the days immediately following the Santa Fe shooting, 54 percent of Texas parents who have children in public schools support arming teachers and other school officials.

But several school districts say they’re still hesitant to participate in such programs.

Several Texas teacher associations are also discouraging schools from arming their employees. The price to implement the program may be low, they say, but the real cost comes from the potential harm that may come to teachers and their students.

 

[SonOfSun]

I know plenty of teachers (or former teachers) who absolutely do want to be armed to be able to respond.

When the SHTF, good men want to be able to respond, not to cower and hope someone else shows up to "do something".

I'm not sure we want the sorts of people who don't to be teaching our kids.

Before I get started here; the data file is attached to this post at the bottom as a zip file. This data set is only school shootings, so things like LAs Vegas, etc. aren't in here.


I pulled the Center for Homeland Defense and Security's K-12 School Shooting Database. I added a quick dashboard to make it easy to view the data. When you look at the data, handguns are the most common used weapon by far, followed by other (which I'm not quite sure what that data point is - maybe other weapons per the ATF?), and then the rest including rifles and shotguns are rarely used. In terms of people shot, over 80% of school shootings have either 0 or 1 person shot, about 60% of the time 1 person is shot. A 0 here would indicate that a weapon was discharged but nobody was injured. When including the 0 or 1 person shot data, on average a shooting done by a handgun has 1 person shot, and a shooting done with a rifle has an average of 2.16 people shot (Average Combined Killed and Wounded Chart).

It gets more pronounced when you look at the shootings where more than 1 person is shot (ie. 2+). Ignoring my personal opinion on it, this is why you always see people targeting what is commonly referred to as an "Assault Rifle". Rifle shootings are much rarer, but when they happen they are much worse on average. They are much more likely to end up being high impact events so they get more attention, sort of like how you don't hear about every car crash, but you sure do hear about every plane crash.

Also, if you look at the data, most of the school shootings (~95%) have 0-3 people being shot and that is almost entirely with handguns.... however most of these occur outside but on school property.

How does all of this relate to your post? Well, I'm not sure how much armed teachers will dissuade someone from shooting someone outside with a handgun (which is actually where most school shootings occur). I also doubt they will work against school shootings where semiautomatic rifle is used (and these are the "high-visibility" events) as the damaging capabilities of a rifle are typically higher and a shooter would definitely have an advantage over a teacher with a handgun. I'm not saying I'd rather have a can of soup over the handgun, I'm just somewhat skeptical of their ability to deter an attacker armed with a rifle.



All Shootings:


Shootings with 2+ shot.

 

[spat]

Before I get started here; the data file is attached to this post at the bottom as a zip file. This data set is only school shootings, so things like LAs Vegas, etc. aren't in here.


I pulled the Center for Homeland Defense and Security's K-12 School Shooting Database. I added a quick dashboard to make it easy to view the data. When you look at the data, handguns are the most common used weapon by far, followed by other (which I'm not quite sure what that data point is - maybe other weapons per the ATF?), and then the rest including rifles and shotguns are rarely used. In terms of people shot, over 80% of school shootings have either 0 or 1 person shot, about 60% of the time 1 person is shot. A 0 here would indicate that a weapon was discharged but nobody was injured. When including the 0 or 1 person shot data, on average a shooting done by a handgun has 1 person shot, and a shooting done with a rifle has an average of 2.16 people shot (Average Combined Killed and Wounded Chart).

It gets more pronounced when you look at the shootings where more than 1 person is shot (ie. 2+). Ignoring my personal opinion on it, this is why you always see people targeting what is commonly referred to as an "Assault Rifle". Rifle shootings are much rarer, but when they happen they are much worse on average. They are much more likely to end up being high impact events so they get more attention, sort of like how you don't hear about every car crash, but you sure do hear about every plane crash.

Also, if you look at the data, most of the school shootings (~95%) have 0-3 people being shot and that is almost entirely with handguns.... however most of these occur outside but on school property.

How does all of this relate to your post? Well, I'm not sure how much armed teachers will dissuade someone from shooting someone outside with a handgun (which is actually where most school shootings occur). I also doubt they will work against school shootings where semiautomatic rifle is used (and these are the "high-visibility" events) as the damaging capabilities of a rifle are typically higher and a shooter would definitely have an advantage over a teacher with a handgun. I'm not saying I'd rather have a can of soup over the handgun, I'm just somewhat skeptical of their ability to deter an attacker armed with a rifle.



All Shootings:
View attachment 159991

Shootings with 2+ shot.
View attachment 159992

The problem with that dataset is that they are conflating things that are most certainly not remotely like what we are discussing here.


Nobody is suggesting that armed teachers are going to dissuade gang bangers from shooting each other in the parking lot at midnight.

I think we can all agree that is not even remotely in the same category as the sort of crime we are discussing here.

So, no, they won't make a dent in the dataset, but frankly we don't care about that whole dataset.

They will drastically drop what we can call "real" school shootings. If we are honest about what they are and don't try to artificially inflate the number of them to secure funding or push a narrative.

 

[Cavalry]

I am all for allowing teachers or school staff to carry. Complete made up number but I bet 90%+ of staff are not capable, willing, or competent enough to have that responsibility. We are talking about a population that is primarily female and liberal especially at lower grade levels. The whole concept of carry gets a huge black eye as soon as some dumb fuck teacher has it fall on the floor, loses or worse yet has a ND in the school. These things happens with trained LEO from time to time.
My only thought would be a vault in the classroom/strategic areas wired into the security system that calls out as soon as its opened. Its far from ideal, but it removes the human failure point.
Volunteer security always gets brought up. Sure that would be effective for about 3 weeks after an event. Then the numbers will dwindle down to nothing. If someone shows up they will be just be hanging out, flirting with the school nurse, not patrolling the halls.

 

[fresch]

If you're the English teacher and you hear the murderer coming down the hall, would you want to be armed with a can of soup or a gun

What kind of soup?

 

[Darth]

What kind of soup?

heARty

 

[Grimscale]

There is no way the average teacher wants to be armed and be held responsible for engaging an active shooter

There is a good chance a lot of these same teachers carry on their own time.
The average person is willing to carry to defend themselves against anything, including active shooters.

The idea of being able to lock the classroom door doesn't negate the need for someone inside willing to defend the children. There's no reason not to have both.

If a teacher is willing to jump in front of the students, unarmed, to protect them why not do so with something that will allow them to fight back and not just be another statistic?

It's obvious that "gun free zones" is a complete and total lie. Maybe it's time to try something different.
And, while we are training the teachers to defend the children, we can also be making sure the children are raised to respect others. We can have processes in place to get those youngsters the help they need BEFORE they resort to mass murder. We can recognize the symptoms of mental/emotional issues and head off more of these events.
And, sad to say, we can mourn the ones we cannot prevent. No system is 100% foolproof. We cannot get all of them in time.

 

[kev74]

It looks like Texas isn't the only place where hardened entry points at schools have fallen to the wayside.

Student caught after riding motorcycle through school halls - Mid Hudson News

SPRING VALLEY – Ramapo Police have arrested a student enrolled in the Ramapo Senior High School after the student operated a motorcycle in the halls of the school on Tuesday, May 24. According to police, a student at the school operated an off-road motorcycle through the halls of the school...

midhudsonnews.com

I am looking forward to hearing these morons explain how their security procedures were followed, but a kid was able to ride a dirt bike through the school.

 

[fresch]

We brought guns to school this never happened.
The problem is society,

 

[Jem45472]

We brought guns to school this never happened.
The problem is society,

I don't pretend to have any answers, but this is 100% correct. Also will add that there used to be gun racks with rifles and shotguns in many vehicles, and never any problems.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Here's why this won't ever get fixed. The first step in fixing this problem is removing politics from it and having the media being responsible to stop trying to inflame emotions.

To honestly get to the root of the problem politicians have to stop using these crisis for political talking points, the media has to stop en flaming emotions and causing people to default to their previous opinions and positions and we as a society have to have hard discussions on difficult topics that are causing individuals to engage in these horrific crimes.

So it's never going to get fixed because politicians and media are never going to honestly let that happen because they want to exploit everything and turn everything into politics. So we will stay in this perpetual cycle until a president enacts executive orders and his orders then get tied up in SCOTUS which likely won't address the root cause anyway. It's merely going to address the symptoms not the illness.



We will never have a national conversation like (as an example) "what can be done to prevent these lone nuts from engaging in evil attacks, can we strengthen their families, work to support the roles of fatherhood and male influence, is it socioeconomic, is it class, did feminism cause these conditions, what role does the media play making people feel hopeless, is this the result of losing religion and becoming more secular, is it online social media and search algorithms feeding people crap, is it big pharmas psych meds, do we need to increase mental health screening and treatment, how do we balance the preservation of rights while working to protect the many".


So on and on we will spin in circles never accomplishing anything.

Etc. Instead all we're going to get is "blame ar15s, and insert left/media talking point here"

 

[GTN]

I need to go to some schools for my job. After they started locking down the schools I use to brag that I could always find a way in. Not any more! Even after school the doors age still locked

 

[BerettaGuy]

I bet a decent number of parents would get training and volunteer in shifts.

Yeah right! The same parents who continue to allow this to be propagated by School Admins and the Board of Education.

 

[Phazer]

Yeah right! The same parents who continue to allow this to be propagated by School Admins and the Board of Education.
View attachment 160004

Are these actually images of the murderer?

 

[livingston]

A resolute man armed with one of these rifles ....True years ago ... true today. All the talk of arming teachers and such.... This person was chased and engaged by law enforcement. professionals ... Still was able to cause carnage .Shooter by all accounts should have been put down before entering the school. Perhaps was outgunned at the time . with LEO's only having side arms for use at that moment. Shoots his way through a locked door .. Along arming teachers one should have had a leo on duty at the school. Perhaps they did. . I am not against arming teachers.
We don't know all the events yet.

 

[2WheelGnnr]

breaking..

Mass Baseball Bat head Bashing............

agreed.....gotta say shooting huh...agreed..mass murder.....

 

[NYCGuy]

We’re too busy printing money for fucking Ukraine and lazy fucks who were scared to go to work and catch a cold, when local communities probably cannot afford to put more cops with M4’s in schools.

This is where the cops fucking belong. 3 cops for every school in america covering every entrance. 2 cops for every place of business where 500 or more people gather. They don’t belong on the fucking highway looking giving speeding tickets or on the corner patting people down for drugs.

This shit is fucked man. Everyone just goes on as if nothing happened. The libs want to write more laws that don’t do shit about the problem and the right just wants to buy more guns. God damn sick of this shit.

 

[pshift]

The only solution is to allow law abiding citizens to carry firearms and to have armed guards in the schools. Laws will NEVER prevent this from happening. I'm sick of listening to that congressman (CT, I believe) who stated that this only happens in the USA. Lies!

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

We’re too busy printing money for fucking Ukraine and lazy fucks who were scared to go to work and catch a cold, when local communities probably cannot afford to put more cops with M4’s in schools.

This is where the cops fucking belong. 3 cops for every school in america covering every entrance. 2 cops for every place of business where 500 or more people gather. They don’t belong on the fucking highway looking giving speeding tickets or on the corner patting people down for drugs.

This shit is fucked man. Everyone just goes on as if nothing happened. The libs want to write more laws that don’t do shit about the problem and the right just wants to buy more guns. God damn sick of this shit.

I've participated in my district on a parent outreach on how to make school safer and more secure earlier this year after a kid was caught with a gun on school property (it didn't make the news)

It gets complicated very quickly and most of the measures are just feel good window dressing that will do nothing from actually stopping a semi intelligent person from planning and committing these atrocities.

it's a balancing act.

Do we want our schools to feel like a prison?

Are we OK with more than quadrupling the time it takes to have kids enter schools through controlled entry metal detectors every day in all weather conditions and further messing up bus schedules and times to transport students. (The kids are still vulnerable lined up outside). Hardening schools cost major $ and people aren't going to think it's great when school taxes go up 50%. They will complain about that. Politicians will argue where state and federal money get spent they still have their pet projects and pork and money laundering to look after

It costs well into 6 figures to hire 1 single sworn police department officer as a school resource officer. Apparently the officers get to bid on the role and usually the high seniority guys take it who are making a lot of money and all their associated costs. You can hire more hall monitors for much cheaper but their capabilities are limited other than preventing fights and trying to identify problem kids or getting a pulse on the school.

Allowing teachers and staff who choose to be armed and trained is all well and good but most teachers likely are not wanting that responsibility and or have the abilities to effectively carry out those duties. And just wait until one of them does something irresponsible like drop their gun in class or walks away from their desk and little Timmy finds their pistol in a purse or desk. It's going to happen. Again it's pros and cons.


Short of turning school into an airport/prison there isn't much you can do that doesn't have major drawback. I quite frankly don't know what the answer should be but it needs to be thorough and comprehensive. We need to be treating the disease not the symptoms and it needs to be layered.

We need to eliminate the causes of what sets people on the path of thinking this is an acceptable idea.
We need to identify those types of people and intervene
We need to reduce and mitigate their ability to carry out their actions
We need to protect children and schools
If all those preventive proactive measures fail there needs to be better solution to immediately stop kinetic actions and hard protect students while in schools.

 

[spat]

The only solution is to allow law abiding citizens to carry firearms and to have armed guards in the schools. Laws will NEVER prevent this from happening. I'm sick of listening to that congressman (CT, I believe) who stated that this only happens in the USA. Lies!

Laws don't stop people from committing crime.

Laws only allow you to punish them afterwards.

Incarceration can stop them from committing crimes, but laws alone never will.