Most reliable Battle rifle -AR308?

[freddy]

Here is a bullet button for the scar 17. Any other mag locks for this platform? Single shot if it cannot be opened like an AR for top loading?

RADDLOCK FN SCAR 16 / SCAR 17 Ambi Mag Lock

 

[Snappo]

I havent done much research on this yet but im curious as to who makes the most reliable AR in 308?

Long story short, all my long gun research has me wanting a nice bolt action in 6.5 creedmoor, and i would have to sell my current rem 700 in 308 to afford it, but down the road id need/want to replace the 308, but with a semi auto.

I like what Aero precision has to offer, but what else is good?

Shameless plug for my friends that work in Ilion - take a look at a product Remington makes called the R25. If you aren't committed to buying things manufactured here in Central NY - take a look at the Springfield Armory Super Match. I have the National Match, and Super Match is the one up from that. I think it's a heavier barrel and some other accurizing stuff that lowers the MOA considerably.

Here's the R25:
Model R-25 GII

Here's the Super Match.
Super Match M1A™ | Competition Tactical Rifles for Sale

And Here's what I selected instead - my National Match and my Standard edition (I got sticker shock on the Super Match):

If you are only going to shoot like 100 through 300, the SOCOM-II is also a nice shooter. I like mine and it's more of a Standard converted for CQB.

 

[Uzi]

A battle rifle with a locked magazine is not a battle rifle.

If you're looking for a better option when you think you'll need one, unlocking the magazine release from an existing ar platform is probably more beneficial than trying to find another legal rifle without a pistol grip or other devices that are on modern defensive firearms for a reason. One simple change that can be done in just a few minutes when SHTF yields a useful modern rifle only with a limited capacity, which if you have loaded spare mags isn't that big of a deal dropping a mag and pressing the bolt release more often. If You're still alive after loads of mag changes over and over again, then you should just consider getting the hell out of that situation. I personally don't think many rounds will have to be exchanged in most SHTF situations before there is some type of a conclusion. I think a 5.56 is a much much better option. Is your rifle going to be exposed to salt water, sand and dust daily? Probably not. We all want the very best, but realistically I don't see a 308 having an advantage in a civil unrest. You're eventually going to want to relocate while carrying ammo and eventually you'll need to find more ammo. If you're not moving around then it's not much of a battle rifle. Lightweight rifle, lighter ammo, known reliability, easy to find parts and ammo, and compatibility.

 

[Snappo]

A battle rifle with a locked magazine is not a battle rifle.

If you're looking for a better option when you think you'll need one, unlocking the magazine release from an existing ar platform is probably more beneficial than trying to find another legal rifle without a pistol grip or other devices that are on modern defensive firearms for a reason. One simple change that can be done in just a few minutes when SHTF yields a useful modern rifle only with a limited capacity, which if you have loaded spare mags isn't that big of a deal dropping a mag and pressing the bolt release more often. If You're still alive after loads of mag changes over and over again, then you should just consider getting the hell out of that situation. I personally don't think many rounds will have to be exchanged in most SHTF situations before there is some type of a conclusion. I think a 5.56 is a much much better option. Is your rifle going to be exposed to salt water, sand and dust daily? Probably not. We all want the very best, but realistically I don't see a 308 having an advantage in a civil unrest. You're eventually going to want to relocate while carrying ammo and eventually you'll need to find more ammo. If you're not moving around then it's not much of a battle rifle. Lightweight rifle, lighter ammo, known reliability, easy to find parts and ammo, and compatibility.

What about an AK platform? It's 30 cal which is a bigger hole, there is almost no way to break the thing and cause it to fail, you can use 10 round mags in public but keep 30 and 40 round magazines stashed at home for the zombie apocalypse, and those kits with spare parts are really cheap. Most of them are 2 or 3 MOA's so you should be able to kill zombies at 300 yards with no major problem. While the AR platform is a lower MOA than the AK platform; AR's do have a history of being finicky (especially the original SP1's), and the design is more complicated.

Has Trump ever said anything publicly about the SAFE Act? Is he a friend or foe to Cuomo? I'm hoping he is against the SAFE Act, and dislikes Cuomo. Maybe he can help get Cuomo ousted.

 

[freddy]

I know willjr75 will suggest this, but I would rather have a fixed mag scar 17s.

 

[Uzi]

What about an AK platform? It's 30 cal which is a bigger hole, there is almost no way to break the thing and cause it to fail, you can use 10 round mags in public but keep 30 and 40 round magazines stashed at home for the zombie apocalypse, and those kits with spare parts are really cheap. Most of them are 2 or 3 MOA's so you should be able to kill zombies at 300 yards with no major problem. While the AR platform is a lower MOA than the AK platform; AR's do have a history of being finicky (especially the original SP1's), and the design is more complicated.

Has Trump ever said anything publicly about the SAFE Act? Is he a friend or foe to Cuomo? I'm hoping he is against the SAFE Act, and dislikes Cuomo. Maybe he can help get Cuomo ousted.

Yes, the AK platform would also be a great option too. Rugged, reliable, and common. I personally like 30 caliber more as well. I'd choose my tiny 300 blackout pistol over a full size ak rifle in an urban area, even though ammo would be virtually non existent in 35 compared to 39 .For what I did have, I'd prefer it before I made a switch back to the .556 rifle. No sense in giving zombies a long barrel to grab when clearing and transitioning into rooms, and when you're running all day the lighter weight will help.

My personal opinion about Trump is that he doesn't care about taking on NY's gun control. He's too busy anyways right now. I know at least one of his sons is very pro second amendment and Trump himself does own and carries concealed pistols, but I think the focus should be tackled hard on a federal level. Andy has shown how corrupt he already is and won't stop anytime soon pushing his agenda further.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I know willjr75 will suggest this, but I would rather have a fixed mag scar 17s.

Of course you would. Because when it comes down to it, it's all about looks.

 

[stuck in ny]

I know willjr75 will suggest this, but I would rather have a fixed mag scar 17s.

Make me want to puke, so ugly

 

[Marine Cpl]

Make me want to puke, so ugly

I'd actually suggest something else with better ergonomics and looks like an M14/ M1A living in NY but if my back was against a wall and it was the monstrosity vs a beautiful fixed magazined rifle, I'd take the monstrosity each and every time if I my life depended on it.

 

[ProgSpear]

Make me want to puke, so ugly

I think the A-10 drivers would take exception; "Go Ugly Early!" was the motto as I recall (and no, dammit, I was never a driver, just an admirer.) It's whatever gets the job done.

 

[freddy]

Of course you would. Because when it comes down to it, it's all about looks.

Will, this is my reasoning.....

To return the unsafe act rifle to 100% proper factory design:

Unsafe act featureless = grind weld off, remove pin, attach muzzle brake, remove thorsden, install pistol grip, install buttstock

Unsafe act fixed mag = unscrew mag lock, install mag release

I am not looking at this choice from the perspective of keeping the rifle in unsafe configuration for immediate home defense use, so this is where we diverge.

Edit: added word 'act' for clarity

 

[meketrefe]

I WANT THAR SALTED RIFLE!!!

ME TOO!

 

[zzrguy]

I built a 45 raptor on a DSI DS10 upper and lower set very happy with the guns fit and finish.

 

[meketrefe]

Best is so subjective and arbitrary ....
When it comes to firearms, ammo and related, there is no best for everything.
The 308 is as versatile as the nr. of platforms built for it from a simple hunting action to the most sophisticated military machines.
LMT, POF, Armalite, etc... make great out of the box AR weapons systems.
Anyone building one can get along with a DPMS based system.
DPMS / SR25 is pretty much the standard and with new shaved receivers and thin profile barrels and parts one can build a 5lbs one
although it is not the greatest idea for the caliber.
Like with any AR what matters the most are the internals like barrel + bcg and trigger groups. The rest is just a shell and a matter
of ergonomics.
In terms of supreme accuracy out of the box the Les Baer is hard to beat with 1/2 moa being a constant with their rifles. They
use standard receivers yet superb barrels and triggers and therefore a clear example why brands do not matter so much.
The FA puts together also some pretty nice ones thanks to their assortment of wonderful Krieger barrels.
I love the mega recievers but the fact that are not compatible with the standard cut is a pity.
Anyway they make very solid foundation for a high precision machine.
If one wants high top precission everything starts with a good barrel like the krieger 5R I used on this one.
They are very expensive but they are worth every penny.

 

[Podmonkey]

Look the best NY legal "battle" rifle is the Garand. I want a Galil Ace .308 personally. And 308 ARs never got all the R&D that it's little bro AR15 got so it's not nearly so refined. Competing standards and lack of fully interchangeable parts dosen't help either. I still think the SR25 pattern is the better of the two. LMT probably makes the best 308 AR.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Will, this is my reasoning.....

To return the unsafe rifle to 100% proper factory design:

Unsafe featureless = grind weld off, remove pin, attach muzzle brake, remove thorsden, install pistol grip, install buttstock

Unsafe fixed mag = unscrew mag lock, install mag release

I am not looking at this choice from the perspective of keeping the rifle in unsafe configuration for immediate home defense use, so this is where we diverge.

I agree with you about not keeping the rifle in an unsafe configuration for home defense. That's stupid for someone who doesn't have anything else to use for home defense.

But for those of us that do keep it for home defense in a featureless configuration, to bring it to normal, all it takes is the removal of the grip screw, removal of the stock, the pistol grip goes back on, the screw goes back on, and the collapsible stock is slid back on. It's is done in less than 5 minutes. No drilling required like those that epoxy. I do it all the time when I go to PA.

The flash can stays on. There is no need for removal. If the barrel is crowned or pinned with a cap, it's still good to go. A muzzle break is pretty much useless for a 9mm or a .223.

This way is functional in both configurations.

 

[freddy]

I agree with you about not keeping the rifle in an unsafe configuration for home defense. That's stupid for someone who doesn't have anything else to use for home defense.

But for those of us that do keep it for home defense in a featureless configuration, to bring it to normal, all it takes is the removal of the grip screw, removal of the stock, the pistol grip goes back on, the screw goes back on, and the collapsible stock is slid back on. It's is done in less than 5 minutes. No drilling required like those that epoxy. I do it all the time when I go to PA.

The flash can stays on. There is no need for removal. If the barrel is crowned or pinned with a cap, it's still good to go. A muzzle break is pretty much useless for a 9mm or a .223.

This way is functional in both configurations.

My post may have been confusing. By 'unsafe configuration' I mean configured to comply with safe act. Also, this thread is about the manly 7.62x51 cartridge not the poodle popping 5.56, so a functioning muzzle break is in fact relevant to conversion to proper factory build.

 

[Marine Cpl]

My post may have been confusing. By 'unsafe configuration' I mean configured to comply with safe act.

I meant that too. It is both "unsafe" in a safety sense to keep a fixed magazined AR for home defense due to not having the ability to reload or fix a stoppage.

It is also "unsafe" when the rifle has a fixed magazine in regards to compliancy as far as the law goes. Ex. Joe's fixed magazined SKS is good to go for NY travels because it is in an "unsafe act" configuration.

Also, this thread is about the manly 7.62x51 cartridge not the poodle popping 5.56, so a functioning muzzle break is in fact relevant to conversion to proper factory build.

M14's issued to US troops didn't have muzzle brakes. Hell M1 Garands chambered in 30-06 didn't have muzzle brakes.

 

[freddy]

It is also "unsafe" when the rifle has a fixed magazine in regards to compliancy as far as the law goes. Ex. Joe's fixed magazined SKS is good to go for NY travels because it is in an "unsafe act" configuration.

I don't understand this. Would you explain please?

 

[dsdmmat]

I meant that too. It is both "unsafe" in a safety sense to keep a fixed magazined AR for home defense due to not having the ability to reload or fix a stoppage.

It is also "unsafe" when the rifle has a fixed magazine in regards to compliancy as far as the law goes. Ex. Joe's fixed magazined SKS is good to go for NY travels because it is in an "unsafe act" configuration.

M14's issued to US troops didn't have muzzle brakes. Hell M1 Garands chambered in 30-06 didn't have muzzle brakes.

M14s had evil flash suppressors they also weigh a bit more than MSRs of today. Even the M1As sold up until the "end of sanity laws" had flash suppressors. I have configured one of my M1As into a fixed mag rifle. It is easily fed by stripper clip and I didn't have to screw with the muzzle device. The other one was NY Compliant when I bought it and is getting re-barreled to 6.5 Creedmoor for bench rifle duties.

The M1 Garand doesn't need a muzzle device the weight and length of the thing handles a majority of the perceived recoil. Still firing a mere 56 (military surplus) rounds at the range in a single outing will give you some aches and pains to contend with.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I don't understand this. Would you explain please?

We say "Unsafe Act" instead of "Safe Act" because in all reality, the law makes law abiders "Unsafe."

Joe can go to NY with his SKS rifle because it is in an "Unsafe Act" configuration. IE fixed magazine. Had Joe kept the SKS all bubba'd out with his Tapco detachable magazines, he could not take his SKS to NY.

 

[dsdmmat]

We say "Unsafe Act" instead of "Safe Act" because in all reality, the law makes law abiders "Unsafe."

Joe can go to NY with his SKS rifle because it is in an "Unsafe Act" configuration. IE fixed magazine. Had Joe kept the SKS all bubba'd out with his Tapco detachable magazines, he could not take his SKS to NY.

I really hope the NRA's new lawsuits against CA ends up in the supreme court and goes the way they think it should. Then we would be free of the SAFE act, the 2000 AWB and these lame mag restrictions. One can dream.

 

[meketrefe]

I love the M1A. Amazing rifle.
The main issue with the M1A is that no matter how much money you dump into one including rebarreling, mcmillan stock, trigger and the whole
shibangs, they are not consistent shooters. They are accurate enough but not as repeatable as one would expect.
So after playing with them for many years I went the route of the AR. I also got an FNAR and a few other 308 rifles.
The accuracy of a good AR is not matched by any other 308 auto-loader. Les Baer makes the most accurate out of the box AR as
far as I know.
Back in the day I sold one M1A socom and with that money got 4 saigas in 308 and some money to spare. That was the time when
saigas were priced at what they cost and not now heavily overpriced.
The 16" saiga in 308 with aftermarket trigger group and good brake is as consistent as the M1A socom and one will not argue they are
not reliable. the reason is simple, the 3 lug beefed up trunions and barrel makes a big diffrence vs. the more flimsy small cousing x39.
It is not a secret the beefed up russian made AKMs from Izmash and Molot (VEPR) make great guns and a lot more accurate when
paired with western ammunition in both 223 and 308.
the 16" is a lot more accurate than the 22 and 24 versions where the harmonics do not play in the favor. I wish they made one in 18" that
would be perfect for the caliber and to reduce the concusion of a 16" 308 gun that is a bit of a waste.
I love the M1A but if someone asked me to choose between one and a good AK based like those above or a quality Galil I would probably
go with the AKM because of its balance between accuracy, weight and amazing reliability.
M1As are cool, I understand people love them but there are other options.
The FNAR is also cool but it is a royal PITA and not up to the rigors of heavy use or any critical task.

 

[meketrefe]

BTW Krebs will build you a 308 AKM to your specs but I feel they are overpriced and a good gunsmith will do the same or better.
Also ASI offers custom Rem 750 with a proprietary gas block that allows for heavy barrels. They come with 3/4 moa out of the box tested
but I also feel they are not up to the task for any heavy rigors. You have 10rds mags for them.
So far I only shot one from a friend and they are in deed accurized but not sure I would got that route with the AR DPMS patter being so
plentiful and available.
The folks who went the route of the SCAR quiclky learned it is not all what they all claim to be. Some we shot to together and used to post
in the old NYF whorehouse. All gone now to greener pastures after the forums politics started.

 

[meketrefe]

I really hope the NRA's new lawsuits against CA ends up in the supreme court and goes the way they think it should. Then we would be free of the SAFE act, the 2000 AWB and these lame mag restrictions. One can dream.

They only problem with CA is that they are so brainwashed that I feel they either will not comply with federal rulings or devise a plan to screw the free people in some other way. CA is lost and damaged beyond repair. The sheep/ communist mentality is deeply rooted.
I feel the battle should focus agressively in education, the younger the better. ...you know, trying to counter the indoctrination programs.

 

[Snappo]

M14s had evil flash suppressors they also weigh a bit more than MSRs of today. Even the M1As sold up until the "end of sanity laws" had flash suppressors. I have configured one of my M1As into a fixed mag rifle. It is easily fed by stripper clip and I didn't have to screw with the muzzle device. The other one was NY Compliant when I bought it and is getting re-barreled to 6.5 Creedmoor for bench rifle duties.

The M1 Garand doesn't need a muzzle device the weight and length of the thing handles a majority of the perceived recoil. Still firing a mere 56 (military surplus) rounds at the range in a single outing will give you some aches and pains to contend with.

Muzzle devices hide flashes. To your point some deal with recoil in an attempt to compensate recoil movement and return the shooter to their target sight picture more rapidly; but hiding a flash is a safety component for the shooter. As early as WW II, manufacturers looking at field data were finding that after one or two shots the enemy was getting an extremely accurate location on the shooter due to muzzle blast even at very long distances. So these muzzle devices attempted to lower the flash. The engineering approach was to reduce the visible signature by dispersing and cooling the gas as it left the end of the barrel behind the bullet. Some lower or eliminate recoil by driving the firearm forward.

I'm not sure why Springfield Armory didn't attempt to address the problem during WW II; but the problem was solved in time for the Korean War. The M14 replaced the M1 and had a gas cooling and dispersing flash hider on the end of the unit.

 

[dsdmmat]

They only problem with CA is that they are so brainwashed that I feel they either will not comply with federal rulings or devise a plan to screw the free people in some other way. CA is lost and damaged beyond repair. The sheep/ communist mentality is deeply rooted.
I feel the battle should focus agressively in education, the younger the better. ...you know, trying to counter the indoctrination programs.

CA is much like NY. In any event a Supreme Court decision in the affirmative of 2A rights will be cause for celebration across the land.

 

[freddy]

The folks who went the route of the SCAR quiclky learned it is not all what they all claim to be.

Will you explain what was the problem with the SCAR 17?

 

[Snappo]

I love the M1A. Amazing rifle.
The main issue with the M1A is that no matter how much money you dump into one including rebarreling, mcmillan stock, trigger and the whole
shibangs, they are not consistent shooters. They are accurate enough but not as repeatable as one would expect.

I'm shocked you said that. It's the opposite of my experience, as well as the results of shoots every year at Camp Perry and elsewhere. I have two M1 Garand's from WW II with a Springfield Armory manufacturing date of 1943 and 1944, and three modern M1A's from Springfield Armory. A Standard, National Match, and a SOCOM-II. I would say the two M1 Garands (with CMP barrels) are about 2 MOA. My M1A Standard shoots 1 MOA with Lake City LR or Black Hills red box. My M1A National Match does 0.5 MOA with the same ammo. The SOCOM-II is also 1 MOA.

At Camp Perry every year for the 600 yard iron sites championships, the Canadians often bring M1A's made by Norinco. Those are extremely accurate and sub MOA; but USA is forbidden from buying Norinco so we have to buy from Springfield Armory or Fulton Armory. Shooters often use the Super Match M1A. Also, if you look at CMP, they post the results for all of the Garand competitions.

 

[Frankly]

If you truly want a "battle rifle" then the SAFE Act is irrelevant and in the situations where you need one you might as well pull out the real thing and start spraying.